Are CAC stickers useless on MS?

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Endeavor, Feb 7, 2017.

  1. Endeavor

    Endeavor Well-Known Member

    The supposed idea of CAC stickers is to get an opinion on whether a coin is on the high end of a grade and therefore justify a premium. However, with Mint State having 10 grades alone, isn't a CAC sticker pretty much pointless when the differences are so minute among the MS grades?

    Wouldn't a CAC sticker be more appropriate among G, VG, VF or grades lower on the grading scale?
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2017
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  3. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    MS grades are generally where CAC can and does bring the biggest premiums.
     
    PAC, harrync, Oldrdawg and 2 others like this.
  4. Endeavor

    Endeavor Well-Known Member

    I know. And my question is, isn't that a stupid concept?
     
  5. Endeavor

    Endeavor Well-Known Member

    Oh and now TPG's have stars and +'s. So aren't we at a point where we are splitting hairs and further injecting subjective opinion into what's supposed to be a technical grade?
     
  6. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Not really, MS can have big price jumps and that's where the most valuable coins are. A lot of people want another opinion or another set of eyes on a coin before shelling out mid 4 or 5 figures for one.

    MS grading is splitting hairs in the upper ends of it. But we haven't had purely technical grading for a long time.
     
    imrich, Endeavor and atcarroll like this.
  7. ziggy9

    ziggy9 *NEC SPERNO NEC TIMEO*

    It is only a matter of time before we see grades like MS64.3+
     
    Two Dogs, micbraun, harrync and 2 others like this.
  8. C-B-D

    C-B-D Well-Known Member

    I will agree that a + and a green CAC sticker is from the Department of Redundancy Department.
     
  9. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    A + doesn't assure a coin will sticker though
     
  10. Oldrdawg

    Oldrdawg Active Member

    CBD is spot on. Any coin with a "+" identifier should absolutely CAC since CAC says it doesn't recognize the "+" grade. Accordingly, if you send an MS65+ and it CACs, all you have done is confirm that it's a solid MS65. That having been said, it seems that any coin with a CAC sticker sells for more than an "identical" coin without one -- and I'm not talking about the difference of the CAC submission fee. And before they start jumping in, let me be the first to say that some people don't "believe in" CAC and think it's a scam and a mere extension of the fraud that is third-party grading. And, yes, some folks, do indeed believe its pointless, especially at the higher levels (and the low end too).
     
    Two Dogs, harrync, Paul M. and 2 others like this.
  11. tommyc03

    tommyc03 Senior Member

    Gus Tiso and Jack Beymer are not too far behind on this. I can't even decipher Tiso's price lists.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2017
    Endeavor likes this.
  12. ToughCOINS

    ToughCOINS Dealer Member Moderator


    Be careful . . . the CAC sticker does not attest to a coin being on the high end of the grade. In fact, it is only intended to confirm that the coin is at least properly graded. There are an awful lot of CAC coins out there that are merely average for the grade, and not premium quality at all.
     
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  13. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Not necessarily. They do have their own standard just like every service has their own standard. A NGC 65+ may be a PCGS 65 and neither of which may be deemed sticker worthy by CAC. It is true most plus coins will sticker, but there are + coins that have been submitted and failed to sticker.
     
    Endeavor likes this.
  14. SuperDave

    SuperDave Free the Cartwheels!

    CAC exists because the TPG's proved (and continue to prove) that they cannot be trusted to grade consistently and accurately. No reason to believe they'd get the "+" right either.
     
  15. Endeavor

    Endeavor Well-Known Member

    Man if I had a ton of money to blow I would submit a batch of + coins to CAC just to see how many get stickered. Not sure the experiment would accomplish anything but it would interesting to see.

    I also wonder, do dealers shy away from sending + graded coins to CAC because the premium increase is redundant? If so, then that brings up the thought... would CAC lobby PCGS or NGC to stop giving + (or star) grades so there is a market for them?
     
    Paul M. likes this.
  16. Endeavor

    Endeavor Well-Known Member

    All this makes one realize that the competition between the top 2 TPG's along with CAC has an affect on how coins are graded. Who came up with the */+ grade first? Cause surely whoever did forced the other TPG to follow. Why submit to TPG A if TPG B gives you the CAC sticker in the form of a */+. No need to spend more money and time.
     
  17. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Stickered plus grades bring the strongest premium for the grade aside from the right toning look, especially when there is a big price increase to the next grade.
     
    Endeavor likes this.
  18. mikenoodle

    mikenoodle The Village Idiot Supporter

    There would be no good reason to do so. Unless it is proven (and it has, over and over again) that the TPGs are inconsistent in their grading.

    The whole idea behind CAC being better than a + is that it's a second opinion! Not just the TPG's! 2 people must make a mistake for the CAC coin to be incorrectly graded. Get it?
     
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  19. Endeavor

    Endeavor Well-Known Member

    I get it. And I'm not saying there isn't any value in CAC (or getting a 2nd opinion). I'm just talking about how grading and pricing can be influenced by the mere existence of different services available, like a 2nd opinion service. With that said, I repeat, there is some value in the service CAC provides.

    Mike, you seem to be knowledgeable and in touch with the industry... how do you see grading evolving? What's something you think we'll see in the future that we don't see now?
     
  20. orifdoc

    orifdoc Well-Known Member

    The answer to this question depends on what you're collecting.

    Let's take Peace dollars for example. If you're collecting nice, but not exceptional coins (say common-date MS65s), these can be had for around $100. There are plenty of them around and most astute collectors can find a nice one without too much trouble. A dealer with an absolutely spectacular one might ask $150. Within this narrow range, stickers, pluses, and stars don't add much.

    On the other hand, let's say you're looking for a really nice 1922 Philly coin. I'll use recent CoinFacts PCGS auction data. An MS66+ will sell for $900 to $1,700 (depending on quality) and an MS67 will sell for $5,000 to $12,000. Is the nicest MS66+ really worth only 1/3 as much as the poorest MS67? Is the nicest MS67 worth 2.5X a poor MS67? Think about this......

    Buying and selling decisions in this realm are made all the time by dealers and collectors and (surprise) not everyone is 100% confident. A mistake here can leave you getting back less than half of what you spent. A really nice 66+ with no sticker might tempt a collector who is playing the registry game, but those hoping to flip it for a quick profit or those hoping to score a 67 on regrade won't really look at it. Right or wrong, the upgrade arbitrage game drives quite a bit of the top end of the market. A nice 66+ with green sticker is more liquid, even at a higher price. It will also be more tempting for those who don't really know too much about grading, but are playing the crackout or regrade game hoping to land it in a 67 holder.

    Similarly, most people would rather spend more to get a high-end 67 with a sticker as it will be easier to sell, even at the higher price. The most difficult coin in the world to sell is often an overgraded coin in a top-grade holder. Buy an ugly MS67 Peace dollar for $5k and you might just be stuck with it. Is there really that much difference within the MS67 grade?

    Yes.
     
  21. swish513

    swish513 Penny & Cent Collector

    Who's standard does CAC go on? Has any other TPG, such as ANACS, received a bean?
     
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