The Shipwreck Corner

They sell for pittance of what they were bought for on eBay. You can snatch some up for far less than what they sold for.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Yes @Clawcoins I've had a couple of great deals on , mainly, the packaged stuff selling really inexpensively usually by people who are not collectors who bought them on a whim. Usually the sellers are selling a multitude of non coin related items at the same time so they are estate sales.
My latest win on Ebay was two Henry III pennies from the Brussels Hoard which cost me less than half the price of single pennies I've bought.

 

SS Tilawa Tragedy - "The Indian Ocean Titanic".

These coins turned up this week after an epic journey from the USA via France and as a result of the EBay Global Shipping Program was hit with extra charges. Lessons learnt but back to the thread as I am delighted with the coins that were struck to perpetuate the memory of the sinking of the SS Tilawa.



View attachment 1674274


This is the privy mark on the Britannia. An anchor with the date 1942 and SS Tilawa above.

And this is the privy mark of the Krugerrand.



SS Tilawa was an ocean liner of the British India Steam Navigation Company launched in 1924. She was the only passenger liner sunk during World War 2, targeted by a submarine of the Imperial Japanese Navy in the Indian Ocean on 23 November 1942, with the loss of 280 lives. HMS Birmingham and S.S. Carthage rescued 678 people. The survivors were extremely lucky as the Imperial Japanese Navy did not usually rescue or assist survivors and in fact went out of their way to murder them in cold blood including civilians. Ironically the Japanese upheld many of the traditions and structures of the British Royal Navy but chivalry and decency were not included and they had no respect or mercy for their defeated adversaries even if they had shown outstanding courage and resolve.

Many years ago, I read this book by Dr Mark Felton which makes grim reading.




The ship carried a cargo of 60 tonnes of silver bullion that was secretly recovered by a salvage company in 2017. This led to a legal dispute over ownership of the cargo between the salvors and the government of South Africa, the original owner of the silver.

The salvage was accomplished at a huge depth and transported to the UK and surrendered to the Receiver of Wrecks. The Salvors assumed that as it was a British Shipwreck the UK government could confirm ownership and salvage rights to them and this initially was granted in the Salvors favour but later overturned in the Supreme Court.

It is easy to find the full story online, but skip Wickipedia and browse this superb website set up by a descendent of a Tilawa casualty; Silver Bars - Part 2

 

Deep diving into the VOC vessel Hollandia.
I have a number of coins recovered from the Hollandia. They can be found in remarkably good condition. These are two of them. The first is a "Silver Rider" Dutch Ducaton and the second is a Spanish Mexican 8 Reales "Pillar Dollar".
The 8 Reales is pedigreed to the Hollandia on the NGC registry but they did not add the attribution to their label although it was requested.











A joy of being a coin collector and bibliophile is that you read before and after you buy a coin and often this results in fascinating research of subjects you many not have otherwise encountered.
If you have a coin recovered from the Hollandia, or in fact any Dutch VOC vessel or minted by the VOC this is a great book although the numismatic content is completely outweighed by everything else.

Hollandia Compendium: A Contribution to the History, Archeology, Classification and Lexicography of a 150 ft. Dutch East Indiaman (1740-1750)
This is the description of the book I've copied from Amazon.
The wreck of the Dutch East India Hollandia, which sank off the coast of Southwest England in 1743, is one of the most coherent and exhaustive sources of information about the history of the Dutch East India Company (VOC), 1602-1795. A collection of artifacts from the Hollandia, on display at the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam, has drawn increasing interest to the activities of the Company's exceptional international enterprise - particularly with regard to production, trade, and transport. The VOC succeeded in maintaining an almost worldwide trade and transport network for nearly two centuries. Artifacts from ships such as the Hollandia provide clues to the inter workings of the Company as a whole. The Hollandia Compendium is an interplay between historical and archaeological data, thus providing an elaborate and detailed visualisation of the VOC and its functions as a trading company. The present study is a catalogue of objects originating from the wreck. It is a lexicon of administrative usage of the VOC. Additionally included are discussions of the significance of VOC Ships to the development of a historical-archaeological discipline for further investigation of these wrecks, and a survey of historical sources, both material and written for information on ships of the VOC in the mid-18th century.

As the precis indicates this is more than an inventory of the artefacts recovered it gives a real insight into life and trade of the time. There are hundreds of line drawings of the objects alongside their descriptions including tools for all types of trades, medicines , weapons, utensils even bee hives!
It's a huge book , not quite matching the size of ERIC II but getting there.

 

I haven't posted here for a while and have a fair number of coins to share.
Here is a coin I purchased from a Provincial Auction House today and attributed to a coin recovered from the HMS Association. I asked the auctioneer for a weight and attribution before the auction but there was no response but I took a chance anyway. On more than one occasions coins have turned up with COA's or provenance that the Auctioneer simply could not be bothered to list. You won't often have this happen with specialist coin auctioneers but when you buy from a general auction house , who knows what might turn up?



It was minted in Peru , mint mark Lima, 8 Reales of Charles II dated 1697 and the Assayer is Francisco Hurtado numbered L13 in Daniel Sedwick's Practical Book of Cobs. I stand to be corrected and will post the weight and anything that accompanies it when it arrives.
Coins from this shipwreck are readily available as both Cobs and British Coins.

 

Hi Daffyd I'm not sure what you mean when you say that you believe your 8 reales to "be a Mexican". It is clearly- as you say - minted in Lima in 1697, one of the 1,402,595 ocho reales minted there in that year.

 

And just a small correction, the Admiral Gardner sank en route to India, which is why it was carrying a large quantity of uncirculated EIC coinage. Below is the Captain's report.


Captain William Eastfield to William Ramsey, Esq., India House

Deal, 26th January 1809
Sir, It is with extreme regret that I have to confirm the intelligence of the Honourable Company’s Agent here, as to the loss of the Admiral Gardner on the Goodwin Sands, yesterday morning; the painful circumstances attending which I here beg leave to state.
We sailed out of the Downs on the 24th, with the Carnatic and the Britannia, the wind from the eastward. On getting a little to the westward of the South Foreland, the wind drew to the south-east, and about dusk fell calm: it being flood tide, let go the anchor in fourteen fathom water. At 7pm, while giving the ship cable, the wind sprung up from the west-north-west. The people were sent up to hand sails immediately, but the wind increasing violently, they could not effect it. The people continued on the yard until 10pm: the pilot then feeling the lead, called out the anchor was coming home; the people were consequently called off the yards to give the ship cable, and when I was below seeing a little more service clapped on, a little before eleven I heard the pilot exclaim "cut away the sheet, the ship's on shore."

On coming upon deck, I inquired of the pilot what water we had, and he said five fathoms: I observed it was odd that he had not struck before, but repeated his orders to cut the sheet away, under the idea that the depth of water was true; and thinking it impossible to save the ship any other way, as I was aware, if it was so, that we were near the edge of the Goodwin.

The weather had come on so thick, with rain, that we had not seen the lights of the South Foreland since the wind came from the westward. The pilot went forward to see the sheet cut away, and in assisting to do it unfortunately had two of his fingers cut off, after which we was obliged to be laid on his bed, and was immediately delirious. I immediately took a cast of the lead myself, and found to my astonishment fourteen fathoms water. The ship brought ups, and we endeavoured again to hand the sails, which was partly accomplished. I intended, as the tide made to windward, to cut and put her head to the northward, but was induced to hold on as long as I could, to get in the remaining sail and clear away the spare anchor (having lost the best bower in the Gulls the preceding night) and we were employed bending the cable and clearing the anchor, when we first brought up; but from the people being called off, and all employed on other duties, we had not completed it.

The people were by this time absolutely worn down with fatigue. The ship still held on, and I was in hopes would continue so. At half past two, on the weather side slackening the sails then not all in, I thought it advisable to give the ship more cable, which we were effecting, when the small bower parted, broke all the stoppers on the sheet, and it run out to the clench. On the tide making, she brought the wind on the starboard bow, and I was afraid to cut, as I could not get her to cast any other way than to the southward, and judging we were near the Goodwin, was afraid, before I could get her wore round, that she would be on it. Under these circumstances, all I could hope for was that she would hold fast, which she did until half past six, when having left the deck to see how the cable was in the hawse, the chief mate sent down to say the anchor was coming home, and that we had only ten fathoms water. The people were previously stationed at the fore stay sail and topmast stay sail halyards, and the carpenters ready to cut away the mizen mast, the shrouds also braced for casting, and I gave immediate orders to cut the cable, when, on putting my head up the ladder, the quartermaster called out seven fathoms, and in one minute afterwards we had but five, and I saw the breakers under our lee.

Seeing it impossible to save the ship, I ordered the main and mizen masts to be cut away. In the act of doing it the ship struck, and the sea made a fair breach over us. At daylight I had the misfortune of witnessing her on the south sand heads. Myself, officers and crew, remained by the vessel until thirty-five minutes past three PM, when to the gallant exertions of the Deal men, at the risk of their lives, we were brought off, with the loss of only on man: the ship then full of water to the upper deck.

As I am not very well, I trust the Honourable Court will excuse any incorrectness in this statement, and remain,

Sir,

Your most obedient servant

W Eastfield

 

Good point @Bardolph , not sure why I said that , probably the same reason sometimes I look for my glasses and find them on top of my head! Similarly, of course the Gardner was on the way to India and not the other way around!

 

That is an interesting account by W Eastfield @Bardolph and thank you for sharing. Given the circumstances how many of these accounts remain laconic and simply factual amazes me given the fact that most people couldn't swim or would have survived in the seas anyway even if they could and they were extremely lucky to have survived what must have been an absolute nightmare for them.

 

Great coin @lordmarcovan nice write up and picture of the vessel.
The tale of the RMS Douro is one of obsession, a father's quest passed down to his son, and a treasure that lay hidden in the depths of the Bay of Biscay for over a century. It all began in 1949 when Thomas Pickford, a man consumed by a mystery, jotted down a cryptic note: "Douro, 1882, £53,000, Bay of Biscay." This simple line was a breadcrumb leading to a lost fortune, but for decades, it was nothing more than a forgotten piece of paper.

Thirty years later, his son, Nigel Pickford, stumbled upon his father's note. The cryptic message resonated with him, and a new obsession was born. Nigel calculated the modern value in relation to the gold value at the time and appreciated that £53,000 was worth in nearly $5 million in 1996. This is based on the sovereign being worth one pound sterling as Britain was still on the Gold Standard and in the USA in 1882 gold was worth $20.67 a troy ounce. On bullion value alone 53,000 coins would weigh 12,476.2 troy ounces (53,000 x 0.2354) and in 1996 was $388 a troy ounce. Based on the gold's intrinsic value alone, the treasure would have been worth approximately $4,841,765 (12,476.2 x $388).

Nigel knew he had to finish what his father had started. For ten painstaking years, he delved into the past, piecing together the ship's final moments from logs, old newspaper articles, and personal records. He was a detective of the deep, meticulously charting the ship's course and studying survivor accounts to narrow down the search area from a daunting 500 square miles to a more manageable 150.

Nigel’s research was so thorough that it convinced Sverker Hallstrom, a marine salvage specialist, to join the hunt. The odds were stacked against them. No one had ever successfully recovered a cargo of gold from a collapsed iron hull at a depth of 1,500 feet. The two-year search was a test of endurance and patience. They used an ROV, a robot armed with sonar and a camera, but time and again, they were led astray by the ghosts of other wrecks.

Then, a stroke of incredible luck. As the ROV glided over the seabed, its camera caught a glimpse of a porcelain plate wedged in the mud. It was a single, unremarkable dish, but it held the key to the mystery. The plate bore the name of the RMS Company. The Douro had been found.

With the location confirmed, the drill ship Deep Sea Worker was brought in. They began to bring up items from the wreck, a treasure trove of everyday life frozen in time: crockery stamped with the ship’s name, bottles of wine, and other artifacts. The real jackpot, however, was yet to come. The salvage team came across thousands of gleaming gold coins, along with several numbered and un-numbered gold bars. It was an astonishing find, a 93% recovery of the estimated treasure.

The treasure, valued at over a million pounds, was taken to Jersey and officially declared to the authorities. After a required waiting period of one year and a day, the gold was released, and four months later, it was auctioned at Spink & Son but only realised $2.34 million. This low figure was possibly because so many became available which contributes to another post on the forum in respect to the value of hoards.

The ship was also reputed to be carrying extremely high calibre Brazilian diamonds.

While the story of the gold is well-documented, the quest for Brazilian diamonds remains a mystery. The historical record suggests the ship was i carrying these precious stones. However, the search reports from the salvage operation make no mention of finding any diamonds. It's a tantalizing detail that adds another layer of intrigue to the Douro's story. The gold was recovered, but the fate of the Brazilian diamonds remains a secret kept by the deep, leaving open the question of whether they were ever on board, or if they too are waiting to be found. I could not find out if there was ever a value placed on the diamonds and I can imagine that these would be far more difficult to find unless they were in a safe.

Although Nigel didn’t publish a specific book that I can find on the recovery of the Douro treasure he authored The Atlas of Shipwrecks & Treasure, Lost Treasure Ships of the Twentieth Century and Lost Treasure Ships of the Northern Seas.

Here are my Douro sovereigns. One is a Shield back similar to @lordmarcovan and the other is the classic George and the Dragon reverse engraved by the brilliant Benedetto Pistrucci. I believe your Shieldback @lordmarcovan is much better than mine.

 

That's a great point @lordmarcovan . The language we use to describe things truly matters. Cargo is a purely functional term, suggesting items moved from point A to point B for commercial reasons. It's a word you'd associate with shipping containers and bills of lading and Chinese imports.

On the other hand in my mind, treasure evokes a sense of romance, discovery, and inherent value beyond mere commerce. It tells a story of something found, something saved from the depths, and it honours the historical significance of the coins. To be honest I buy a lot of what could be considered non-numismatic valued coins because they are effectively just lumps of metal. I buy them because of where they were found and the research I can study about their circumstances ( always shipwrecks)

It makes perfect sense why you would prefer a term that reflects the true nature and history of your coin, and "Duoro Treasure" certainly does that beautifully more so than Cargo. Personally I would resubmit for a label change quoting precedence and maybe considering the humourless grader who had no consideration for the history of your lovely coin. Cargo ? Nah!

 

Because I am concerned that I may lose paperwork such as COA's I've had a number of shipwreck coins graded to maintain the provenance of the coin particularly the vessel it was recovered from. In this instance I took the original Sotheby's auction envelope to the graders at Coinex, showed them the original envelope and certificates' left them photocopies of the certificates and envelope and this is what came back.




Description
1740MO MF MEXICO 8R
Grade
UNC DETAILS
Pedigree
Hollandia
Comment
SEA SALVAGED


They actually acknowledged the pedigree to the "Hollandia" shipwreck but didn't put it on the label which was the main point of requesting the shipwreck label in the first place. I am attending Coinex at the end of the month and resubmitting it to change the label which is somewhat frustrating having to go through the exercise and cost twice. There is a lot of interesting information available on the Hollandia.
They must have printed a lot of catalogs for the first sale because they are readily available and often sold with coins.



The Hollandia was a Dutch East Indiaman that sank on its maiden voyage in 1743. Departing from Texel bound for Batavia (modern-day Jakarta) with a cargo that included a large quantity of silver coins, the ship became separated from its fleet and struck Gunner Rock, an outcrop in the Isles of Scilly, during a thick fog. All 276 sailors and 30 passengers on board perished.

The wreck remained lost for over two centuries, with early attempts at salvage failing due to the limited technology of the time. In 1968, Rex Cowan, a London attorney, began a search for the wreck, using archival research and, at the time, cutting-edge technology like a proton magnetometer. He finally located the Hollandia on September 16, 1971. The subsequent salvage operation, conducted with a team of divers, recovered a wealth of artifacts, including bronze cannons, lead ingots, and a significant amount of the silver coins that were part of its cargo. The site is now protected under the Protection of Wrecks Act, ensuring its preservation for future research.

 

Following on from @lordmarcovan 's Douro post and by a sheer coincidence purchase this week I thought I would follow up with some more comments.

I stumbled across a bottle of wine this week named Duoro so had to buy it. I haven’t tried it yet but if it is any good, for the benefit of any UK members, it is in Aldi this week and under £6 a bottle, the price no doubt reflected by the fact that not a lot of Portuguese wine is sold in the UK. I need to open it because if its any good I want to keep one anyway as a quirky coin association. I'll report if it is palatable.



Shipwreck coins are one of my favourite “rabbit holes” because one can discover and learn about people ,events, trade, commerce, and politics. I recently joined the 1715 Fleet Society because the Spanish / South American history is a subject that could keep me busy for years. One of the aspects of shipwreck coins, apart from the obvious, is who owned the ships and what was the explanation for the name of the ship. First port of call was Wikipedia to learn about what Douro meant, and I found out it is a famous river in Portugal.

While the RMS Douro never entered the river for which it was named, the ship’s connection to the Douro River region of Portugal is a poignant one, linking a maritime disaster with a place of immense natural beauty and economic significance.

This post explores the Douro River, a waterway that meanders through Spain and Portugal, and the rich history and culture it has shaped, particularly its renowned connection to wine and, most notably, port wine.

The Douro River: A Geographical and Cultural Lifeline

The Douro, known as the Duero in Spain, is the Iberian Peninsula's largest river by discharge. Rising in the Sistema Ibérico mountains of Spain, it flows generally westward through the northern Meseta Central before emptying into the Atlantic Ocean at Porto, Portugal. Its 897-kilometer length makes it the third-longest river in the peninsula.

For 112 kilometres, the river forms a natural border between Spain and Portugal, carving through narrow canyons that historically served as a barrier to invasion. In these isolated areas, the river is protected by the International Douro Natural Park on the Portuguese side and the Arribes del Duero Natural Park on the Spanish side. Once it fully enters Portugal, the Douro's character changes, winding through deep, scenic valleys before reaching the sea.

A River of Wine and Port

The Douro River is synonymous with wine, particularly the world-famous port wine. The "Douro Vinhateiro," or vine-land, of the Douro Valley in Portugal has been designated a UNESCO World Heritage Site due to its long-standing devotion to viticulture. The region’s unique mesoclimate, with its steep, terraced slopes, is ideal for cultivating olives, almonds, and, most importantly, grapes.

For centuries, the wine produced in this region was transported downriver in traditional flat-bottomed boats called rabelos. These boats carried barrels of wine to the cellars in Vila Nova de Gaia, a city just across the river from Porto, where the wine was stored and aged. Today, tanker trucks have replaced the rabelos for transport, but the port wine tradition remains deeply embedded in the region's identity. The area around Pinhão and São João da Pesqueira is considered the heart of port production, home to numerous quintas, or wine estates, that dot the steep river valleys.

The Douro's economic importance is not limited to wine. In the 1960s and 1970s, a series of dams were constructed along the river, not only to regulate water flow and generate hydroelectric power but also to allow for navigation into the upper regions, opening up the river to commercial and tourist traffic. Fifteen dams now punctuate the Douro, with five in Portugal featuring locks that allow vessels to travel from Porto to the Spanish border. This has fostered a prosperous tourist industry, with river excursions from Porto offering a unique way to experience the stunning landscapes of the Douro Valley.



A River of History and Heritage

Beyond its economic and natural significance, the Douro holds a rich history. The river's name is believed to have Celtic or pre-Indo-European origins, with a possible connection to the Latin name Durius. In Roman times, the river was personified as a god, Durius, a testament to its long-standing importance to the region's inhabitants.

The Douro railway line, completed in 1887, follows the river's course, connecting Porto to key towns in the interior. This line was crucial for transporting goods, including wine, and remains an important part of the region's infrastructure and a popular way for tourists to see the valley.

Near the small city of Foz Côa, a tributary of the Douro reveals the Côa Valley Paleolithic Art site, a UNESCO World Heritage Site with ancient rock carvings that are considered a significant part of the archaeological prehistoric patrimony.

To take this further I wondered what the connection was and if maybe the owner , The Royal Mail Steam Packet Company had Portuguese owners which seemed unusual as they were a British Company, and this is what I discovered.

the name RMS Douro, like many of the company's ships, was directly linked to the routes and services it provided.

Here's what my further research reveals about the connection:

• A Key Stop on the Route: The RMS Douro operated on the company's "South Atlantic" route. This was a critical and prosperous service that ran between the UK and South America. A vital part of this journey, and a major stop for the RMS Douro, was Lisbon, Portugal. The ship would often embark and disembark passengers and cargo there, including a significant amount of Portuguese wine, as it did on its final voyage. I couldn’t find reference to the wine in the accounts I found of the sinking.
• A Naming Convention: The Royal Mail Steam Packet Company had a distinct practice of naming its ships after major rivers along their routes. This wasn't a one-off for the Douro. A look at the company's fleet list shows a clear pattern:
  • Thames, Medway, Severn, Clyde: Naming ships after British rivers, often those near the shipyards where they were built.
  • Amazon, Orinoco, La Plata: Naming ships after South American rivers, reflecting the company's primary destination for its mail and passenger services.
  • Tagus, Douro, Mondego: Naming ships after major Portuguese rivers, as Portugal was a crucial hub on the route to South America. The Tagus (Rio Tejo) is the river that flows through Lisbon, while the Douro is the river of Porto, another significant port city and economic centre/

So, while the RMS Douro never physically entered the Douro River itself, it was named as a tribute to its connection to the region and its role in the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company's extensive network that served Portugal. The name was a clear sign of its purpose and the important stop it made in Lisbon on its transatlantic journeys. The company's business model was about connecting the British Empire and Europe with its far-flung territories and trading partners, and Portugal was a key point on that map. The name "Douro" served as a proud and practical reflection of that vital link.
PS,I did try the wine and it is well worth buying. You can sometimes judge the quality of the wine by the cork and this had no cork! Nevertheless. I've tasted a lot worse.

 

I don't collect shipwreck coinage. But, one of the highlights of my IMEX visit Friday was seeing the SS Central America exhibit. They had coins, gold bars, etc. from the wreckage on display, plus a wealth of information about the finding and recovery of the artifacts. One of my favorite things were the coin "fossils", layers of rust that had built up around coins leaving an impression of the coins! It wasn't a huge display, but was very informative and well put together.

I talked a good 30 minutes or so with Bob Evans, the lead researcher of the find and he was more than willing to answer my questions about the wreckage and such.

He gave me his card and he has a blog specifically related to this ship wreck if anyone is interested.

 

Thanks @Joshua Lemons . That must have been a fascinating display and I wish I could have seen it. I don't have a SS Central America coin although an example is on my hit list for the future. I do have a "pinch" of SS Central America gold dust , an artifact that is readily available. I had never heard of SS Central America coin "fossils". Clumps are often found on shipwrecks but of course the emphasis is usually on what they contain and not the residue.
Thank you for sharing with us.

 

I took an image of my SS Central America "pinch of gold" @Joshua Lemons. I'm sure that "Finest known" would have been selling these at IMEX. The photograph on the front of the slab is interesting as you can see the seabed covered in gold.

 

I did see some holders like this, with and without a coin as well.