Tancred-Could you stay a little while longer?

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Magnus Maximus, Jan 19, 2017.

  1. Magnus Maximus

    Magnus Maximus Dulce et Decorum est....

    Hi guys,
    Here is a very rare billon fractional dirham that was minted during the short and tumultuous reign of the last true Norman King of Sicily, Tancred of Lecce.
    I will not bother you with his life story so here is a link to his bio.
    https://www.britannica.com/biography/Tancred-king-of-Sicily

    These little coins are undated and were either minted in Palermo or Messina from 1189-1194. A pity that Tancred died when he did, he would have made a great king who left a stable dynasty and Kingdom had he lived.

    Tancred.jpg
    Reign 1189-1194 CE
    Denomination billon fractional dirham RARE
    Date Struck N/A
    Mint Palermo/Messina, Italy
    Obverse Arabic legend (Kufic style) with a cross in center.
    Reverse Arabic legend (Kufic style)
    Weight 0.49 gr.
    Diameter 9 mm.
    Reference Spahr 138, Zeno 30279, Jean Elsen List 236 lot 937
    Grade good very fine
    CommentsTancred (died 20 February 1194) was King of Sicily from 1189 to 1194. He was born in Lecce an illegitimate son of Roger III, Duke of Apulia (the eldest son of King Roger II) by his mistress Emma, a daughter of Achard II, Count of Lecce. He inherited the title "Count of Lecce" from his grandfather and is consequently often referred to as Tancred of Lecce. Although a member of the Hauteville family, due to his illegitimate status he was known by the surname, Fitz Roger, meaning "son of Roger".
    Born: 1138, Lecce, Italy

    Died: February 20, 1194, Palermo, Italy

    Parents: Roger III, Duke of Apulia

    Children: William III of Sicily, Roger III of Sicily

    Some pictures of Sicilian-Norman Knights and the Kingdom.

    d5ace01c7451e9db67de43087f1d20eb[1].jpg
    81c5fedeeffa9c756a4db4c39f800436[1].jpg


    the_kingdom_of_sicily_by_hillfighter-d384qmz[1].png
    And King Tancred himself.
    220px-Tancred_von_Lecce[1].jpg
    Post your Norman or Sicilian-Norman coins.
     
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  3. FitzNigel

    FitzNigel Medievalist

    Very nice! I would love to delve into these southern Italian issues more... perhaps once I invest in the MEC book for the region. As of now, I still just have the William II (and I am envious of the route you are going!)

    02-NSic-William II-AE-Fol-01.jpg
    Kingdom of Sicily
    William II, r. 1166-1189 A.D.
    Messina Mint, AE Follaro, 17.23mm x 1.7 grams
    Obv.: + OPERATAT IN VRBE MESSANE outside, O / REX W / SCOVS in center (OV ligate)
    Rev.: Arabic legend "al'malik / Ghulyalim / al-thani" (King William 2nd) in center, "bi-amr al-malik al-musta'izz" around edge
     
  4. Cucumbor

    Cucumbor Well-Known Member

    Nothing to share apart from my admiration !!

    Q
     
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  5. Magnus Maximus

    Magnus Maximus Dulce et Decorum est....

    Lovely coin Fitz.
    I plan to finish off my Eastern Roman Trachy collection soon and then collect the rest of the Norman Kings of Sicily.
    Here is a Norman coin from the Duchy.
    IMG_1778.JPG
    Richard the Fearless AR Denier.
    942-996 CE
    1.43 grams
     
  6. seth77

    seth77 Well-Known Member

    Where these minted at Messina AND Palermo?
    I'm asking because between autumn 1190 and early spring 1191 Messina couldn't have minted anything as it was used as base for Philip's and Richard's armies on their way towards the Holy Land, after being conquered and sacked after animosity between Tancred and the crusader forces had reached a climax by October 1190. By the time Tancred agreed to Richard's terms it was already March 1191.
    These issues also seem earlier rather than later, keeping with the William II tradition.
    So if Messina, maybe before mid-late 1190?
     
  7. Magnus Maximus

    Magnus Maximus Dulce et Decorum est....

    @seth77
    I am a noob when it comes to these so don't take this for a fact. I think this coin was minted in Palermo, but the dealer said it was minted in either Messina or Palermo.
    Any help would be much appreciated.
     
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  8. seth77

    seth77 Well-Known Member

    Yes, this is what I also suspect. Apparently Palermo was already a predilect mint for the kharuba during William's reign.
    I'm not an expert on these either, so I'm just speculating here.
     
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  9. chrsmat71

    chrsmat71 I LIKE TURTLES!

    interesting coin! so is the legend "pseudo-arabic" or does it actually say something?
     
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  10. FitzNigel

    FitzNigel Medievalist

    I'll chime in by saying I don't know, but I would suspect it's a pseudo-legend considering there's a big cross in the middle of the obverse
     
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  11. Magnus Maximus

    Magnus Maximus Dulce et Decorum est....

    @chrsmat71
    I was told that it was pseudo, like it didn't stand for anything.
     
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  12. Pishpash

    Pishpash Well-Known Member

    Interesting thread, somehow missed it.
     
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  13. Magnus Maximus

    Magnus Maximus Dulce et Decorum est....

    It should be, it's your husband's cousins from the south :D

    If anyone has any coins from the Norman Kingdom of Sicily then please post them here.
     
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  14. Quant.Geek

    Quant.Geek Well-Known Member

    Very nice coin @Magnus Maximus! I have a soft spot for Norman Sicilian coins. Your particular coin can be read, unlike several of the other Norman Sicilian coins that are written in pseudo-culfic legends. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find my references to aid in the transcription of that coin. In fact, I have several coins that needs to be transcribed and I am far behind :(.

    In the meantime, excuse me for the lack on proper legends in the following coins:

    Norman Sicily: Tancred (1189-1194) AV Tari, ND (MEC-199)

    [​IMG]


    Norman Sicily: Roggero II (1130-1156) AV Tari, NM, ND (Spahr-69, Travaini-217)

    [​IMG]


    Norman Sicily: Guglielmo I (1154-1166) AV Tari, NM, AH549 (Spahr-88)

    [​IMG]
     
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  15. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    Great coins/map/writeup! Sadly, i l have no Norman coins issued in Siclly:( But....
    I have some issued under German Hohenstaufen Rulers, here is one of them.
    AV Double Tari ND 11mm./2.69g.
    Holy Roman Emperor Friedrich II of Hohenstaufen
    Messina Mint 1719857l.jpg
     

    Attached Files:

  16. Magnus Maximus

    Magnus Maximus Dulce et Decorum est....

    @Quant.Geek
    Amazing coins there!
    Was my coin minted earlier in Tancred's reign or later?
     
  17. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    Very nice coins Quant. Geek! Really tough to get them in perfect quality. The Tancred AV Tari is super nice.
     
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  18. Quant.Geek

    Quant.Geek Well-Known Member

    Took me a while, but I think I figured it out. I still need to verify the legends though using my references which I still can't find :rolleyes:...

    Your coins are actually reversed and the last line is a bit difficult to read. I had to go to Zeno #30279 to see the last line.

    Obv: الملك / تنقرير / المعظم (King Tancred, the Magnificent)
    Rev: بالله / + / المعتز (Victorious, through God)

    As a general rule to Norman Sicilian coinage, here are some terms to help in attributing the coins:

    الدوقة (ad-duqah; Duke)
    القومس (al-qumis; Count)
    المالك (al-malik; King)
    السلطان (as-sultan; Sultan)
    المعتز بالله (al-mu'tazz bi-allah; Victorious through God)
    المقتدر (al-muqtadir; the Strong)
    المعظم (al-mu'azzam; the Magnificent)

    ابارت (Ubart; Robert)
    رجار (Rudschar; Roger)
    غليالم (gulielm; Guglielmo/Wilhelm)
    تنقرير (tanqrir; Tancred)

    Here is a snippet from Medieval European Coinage, Volume 14 describing Tancred's coinage. Not much about these fractional dirhams unfortunately. It is attributed as MEC XIV, 446...

    upload_2017-1-22_7-32-9.png
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2017
  19. Quant.Geek

    Quant.Geek Well-Known Member

    That is a very nice eagle and more profound than the one I have! These coins all have pseudo-kulfic legends on them:

    Hohenstaufen Sicily: Frederick II (1198-1250) AV Tarì, Brindisi (Spahr 66-69; MIR-76; D’Andrea-140; MEC 529-31)

    Obv: Circular pseudo-Cufic legend; in center, crowned eagle looking left, with dot above left wing
    Rev: Cross between IC XC NI KA

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Magnus Maximus

    Magnus Maximus Dulce et Decorum est....

    Very cool, thanks for that.
    It seems that these little dirham fractions are really rare if they only have a line or two describing them.:D
     
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  21. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    Here is another one from Hohenstaufen Rulers:

    Ex: Baron Von Brueck Coll.
    3 Tari d'oro ND Brindisi Mint 13mm./3.23g. 1719858l.jpg
    Konrad I 1250-58 of Hohenstaufen/Holy Roman Emperor
     
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