OK/ I have questions about accuracy of third party grading again.... This coin/ Low Countries AV Rosenoble struck at Utrecht Mint circa 1600 by Dutch resistance to Spain. It was graded by CNG (Classical Numismatic Group) as a CH-EF ex:Adams A year later/ same coin shows up in Heritage platinum Night Auction. This time its slabbed as a MS-65 GEM BU!!!!!! I bought a "Supberb EF) from CNG in 1998 /same coin but even better quality/ wonder if this one wouls slab as a MS-67?????? Crappy photos.
Such gross over-grading by the TPGs has been going on for at least 12 years now. But in recent years it has gotten much worse than it ever was before. And not only in the frequency at which it happens, but to the degree of over-grading at which it happens as well. Your example of an XF becoming a 65 is a good example of that. By my estimate the TPGs grossly over-grade at least 90% of the coins they grade in today's world. And that applies to world coins as well as US coins. As it happens, I also used to own an example of this particular coin which was, in my opinion anyway, nicer than either of the two you posted, not that that matters. What you may find useful for your own cataloging purposes is that these coins were struck in 1581. I can also tell you that when it comes to attributing the Rose Nobles, that CNG, well I won't say make mistakes, but rather that they can "miss things". Years ago I cherry picked a Rose Noble from one of their auctions that had been attributed as a common example, while in fact there were at the time only 2 known examples. But in the years that followed I was able to, with the help of a friend, actually catalog 7 known examples of that particular coin, thus rewriting the "book" as it were.
I am not surprised at all. I purchased a choice EF from CNG and it ended up grading MS64. I personally think this is a reflection of conservative grading at CNG more than a blanket commentary on tpg. Has there been gradeflation......absolutely.......i am not going to argue that. Suffice to say a choice piece from CNG is generally a keeper.
Piece referenced in previous post. https://coins.www.collectors-society.com/wcm/CoinView.aspx?sc=400878
Yes, CNG grades very strict/ same for Kunker/Baldwins/St. James/Rauch/Pannonia Terra Numizmatika/Raneri AG....I know Kunker once graded a slabbed MS-66 as a fast stempelglanz=AU! But still, one would have to say that a "mintstate" coin should have no wear/from circulation. Generally speaking most European auction sites grade only MS-65+ as FDC/mintstate/soberba/SC/stempelglanz/unzirculiert
wcg your coin is not off in being a 64. Re gold pieces 1) Pretty 2) I don't know how to grade gold, seems trickier than silver.
I would pass on one word of warning regarding grading done by European dealers in general. While they are as a general rule pretty good when it comes to whether a coin has wear on it or not, they often seem to have a different idea when it comes to problem coins, specifically harsh cleaning. I have seen almost countless numbers of coins over the years sold by European dealers that had at some point been harshly cleaned but yet there was no mention of it, at all, in the coin's description. It was almost as if the harsh cleaning simply didn't matter, that it was perfectly acceptable, when determining grade. What I am trying to get across is that it doesn't matter who has assigned the grade to a coin you are considering buying, a US TPG or a European dealer. You must still closely examine the coin yourself and make your own determination as to whether it is acceptable or not.
Consider that if a particular TPG overgrades consistently it is attracting business by cultivating collectors who will blindly follow the highest possible grade. Call it human nature...
That's because, again--and, we've been over this stretch of track, before--grades are tied into money, now, ever since this monkey-grading, eye-appeal business, and not on condition or the state of preservation after the coins left the Mint. Period, add an exclamation point.
I can think of one that has been particularly egregious about this in the past year or two. It starts with "P" and ends with "CGS"
Personally, If I were in charge of coin grading standards.... I would designate MS-60 as highest grade, and the true FDC perfect coin. This would be thus an "uncirculated" coin MS-65/66/67/68/69/70 All of the so-called mint-state coins graded as MS-60/61/62/63/64 would be AU-50 to AU-59, since these coins all show signs of circulation/wear. John
The problem with that is not all uncirculated coins are equal. Even European graders acknowledge this with their various adjectival descriptions of uncirculated coins. And I define an uncirculated coin as a coin that has no wear. So there's no problem with the numbers assigned to the various uncirculated grades. And it wouldn't matter what those numbers might be, you could make the numbers anything you want. The one and only problem is when the TPGs over-grade coins - in both circulated and uncirculated grades.
The US system of 1-70 has a much finer resolution than the grading scale of a lot of European areas. The German countries have 2 or 3 levels of UNC (stempelglanz being the highest, I think). Some argue that having 11 grades of UNC (or 20 with pluses) is too much. They sometimes make a good point.
They're not over-grading, or, for that matter, under-grading, they're grading for their market, based on that market data. Isn't that how it is?
Well I would agree that's probably along the lines of their thinking. But when their grading no longer even follows their own published grading standards I have hard time calling it anything BUT over-grading. And in today's world, a large percentage of their so called market agrees that they are over-grading on a massive scale.
That's because their published grading standards are as much marketing hype as are their market grades, Doug, because they're not market grading coins, they're selling hyped-up plastic with coins in it.
I agree 100 percent with GDJMSP. The defination of terms like uncirculated/mintstate means that the coin today, is just as it was struck, yesterday or 2500 years ago. The only thing that I might add is that coins that were hammered/milled, struck on fresh dies are sharper in detail then ones minted on worn out dies. It always amazes me that so many Ancient/Medieval/Renaissance/Baroque/Roccoco era coins in collections are "mintstate" to this day. Thankfully, there were collectors throughout time that preserved them for us
