Want to see a waste

I tend to agree with you. I also believe that if people starting doing this...these businesses would be forced to change their business model or they would go bankrupt.

 

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See, that's a fundamental difference in our thinking. I disagree that it should be in any way acceptable to overcharge like this. We can't legislate it, of course, any more than we can legislate morality but the only reason it happens is because enough of society is OK with watching people get ripped off. I cannot imagine having an attitude like that and still being able to look in the mirror.

 

Hmm. There is sharp practice, and people do get ripped off. But at the end of the day if the buyer is content well and good.

 

I know you can't legislate human decency. Though this kind of practice is just disgusting. I would agree that I don't know how a person can look at themselves in the mirror knowing what they are doing.
It's easy to blame others for their lack of knowledge and whether they should research more or not. I think there are people that want to see the best in others. These are the prey of these vultures.

That said, I was raised in Missouri. If you tell me something, you better show me the proof of why I should part with my money. I use this tactic on telemarketers that hit me up for donations to whatever cause,no matter how wonderful it sounds (starving children, abused animals or whatever disease). All I ask them is to kindly send me a breakdown of the costs of the charity and how much of my donation actually goes to the cause. To date, I haven't received a single mailing!

 

I agree with you...and I also said these people cross that line. My only point is it's not all on the seller. Yes, they are crooks. But, this is an easy situation to avoid with the slightest research. This isn't 1985 where it is hard to find information on anything immediately. It's 2016...a quick google search about the product you are looking OR the seller will tell you it's a bad deal. I just don't understand how we seem so quick to run to the defense of someone who simply is unwilling to do any research before buying something.

PT Barnum allegedly said "there's a sucker born every minute." It's true.

 

You cannot use the existence of victims to justify the crime.

 

This is not a crime. It's shady...unethical...but it's not a crime. It's people being foolish with their money. I by no means think it's an ethical business at all...but I also don't have sympathy for people who don't do a shred of homework.

 

I agree that it is a fine line. Being more knowledgeable as a collector forments a different opinion over a regular shopper.

Have you considered how much you overpaid for cable? Lots of people do.

I have a cable company for my internet. Now, every year since we started on a special starter rate, they send me an increased bill saying my starter rate has expired.
Seeing the bill, I call them up and tell them that it is too expensive (often times doubling the bill), they umm and arrr a bit, then tell me what a good deal I am getting. After about five minutes I tell them to forget it, I will cancel the service as it is just not worth that much to me. They then transfer me to a 'specialist' to cancel the service. The specialist then tells me to hold on and see if they can find me any 'specials'. To cut a long story short, I end up with either the same deal, or sometimes even a cheaper deal. I have had a special each year now for nine years.

Does it make me unethical for expecting the best deal? Does it make others stupid to overpay?

I guess it's all relative, some people don't mind overpaying and do not want to take the time to research. Others go to great lengths to get the best deal.

 

PT Barnum never said that. Although it has been attributed to him.

"There's a sucker born every minute" is a phrase closely associated with P. T. Barnum, an American showman of the mid-19th century, although there is no evidence that he said it. Early examples of its use are found instead among gamblers and confidence men.

When Barnum's biographer, Arthur H. Saxon, tried to track down when Barnum had uttered this phrase, he was unable to verify it. According to Saxon, "There's no contemporary account of it, or even any suggestion that the word 'sucker' was used in the derogatory sense in his day. Barnum was just not the type to disparage his patrons."

Some sources claim the quote is most likely from famous con-man Joseph ("Paper Collar Joe") Bessimer, and other sources say it was actually uttered by David Hannum, spoken in reference to Barnum's part in the Cardiff Giant hoax. Hannum, who was exhibiting the "original" giant and had unsuccessfully sued Barnum for exhibiting a copy and claiming it was the original, was referring to the crowds continuing to pay to see Barnum's exhibit even after both it and the original had been proven to be fakes.


Early uses of the phrase refer to it as a catch-phrase among gamblers. In an 1879 discussion of gambling in Chicago, an "old-timer" is quoted as saying, “[G]oodness knows how they live, it’s mighty hard times with the most of them; in the season they make a bit on base ball, or on the races, and then, you know, ‘there’s a sucker born every minute,’ and rigid city legislation drives the hard-up gambler, who would be a decent one of the kind, to turn skin-dealer and sure-thing player.” The use of quotation marks indicates that it must already have been an established catch-phrase.

The phrase appears in print in the 1885 biography of confidence man Hungry Joe, The Life of Hungry Joe, King of the Bunco Men.

In a slightly different form, the phrase shows up in the January 1806 European Magazine: "It was the observation of one of the tribe of Levi, to whom some person had expressed his astonishment at his being able to sell his damaged and worthless commodities, 'That there vash von fool born every minute.''

 

That's why I said "allegedly."

 

That was a philosophical analogy, not a statement of belief.

As I mentioned, I wouldn't want to see this kind of activity made illegal; that's too great an expression of State control over commerce. However, it remains true that the existence of people willing to be taken advantage of does not confer the right to take advantage of them, and in my opinion victim-blaming is not a good look for oneself.

 

I'm not blaming the victim...there is a difference between blaming someone and not having sympathy for them. I believe that sellers like these stretch the ethics (to put it lightly) and take advantage of people's ignorance. That's wrong. On the other hand I don't have sympathy for people who fall into those traps because they are willing to think before they make a purchase.

It's also not blaming the victim to say that if people (in general) did the minimal research needed...these businesses wouldn't exist because there would be no money to be made.

 

In this case (to me) it's black and white and not gray.
They may not be doing anything "illegal".
But it is wrong, unethical, amoral and they are stealing from people.
Just because some words written down hundreds of years ago absolve you
of criminal guilt, doesn't make it right.
They are the sleaziest of crooks because they can say: We're not doing anything illegal. We aren't forcing anybody to buy anything. They come to us.
A crook is a crook is a crook, no matter what the "law" says.

 

Stealing from people implies no choice, the people who buy these products do have a choice.
You could make the same comment about the mint for selling $17 of silver for $50.
Or any collector selling his collection pieces for fair value, essentially you are saying everyone is a crook.

 

Well, the alternative is, the first thing we have to tell the newbies coming in to the hobby is, they can't trust much of anyone out there. The second thing is, they shouldn't buy any coins for months until they learn enough to tell the difference between a good deal and a bad one. Or, that they have to only purchase slabbed coins, whose contents we regularly ridicule around here as well.

The only reason this discussion is necessary is because everyone here (I see nobody actually defending these sellers, just differences in related opinion) isn't willing to be activist about making them know they're not desired in the hobby. Just like the people who won't do the research first, we won't expend the effort to clean up our house.

 

The problem is...I don't think they'd care. Clearly their target consumer base aren't serious collectors. They are targeting an uneducated population. You can't go and slander them publicly...at least not too much because that can be a liability issue. They aren't technically doing anything illegal.

I think what we are doing is the best thing we can do. Discuss the problem on an open forum so the information can easily be found on a google search. The hope being that if someone decided to do a quick search before "pulling the trigger" they might be stopped.

 

The coin community frowns on them, however not everything they sell should be frowned upon. People buy iPhones for $800 because it is worth that much to them. A few years later they are worth maybe $300, does this mean they are getting 'ripped off'?
How about a dentist who charges $1000 for a root canal that takes an hour? Or a repair shop that charges $80-160 an hour, when the tech gets maybe $15-$20? All have overheads to cover and some expertise.

For a non collector to pay $100 for a coin you can buy from the mint at $50 does mean they pay more than they could buy it for. However they also make make out ok over the long run, to them the purchase makes sense.

I remember green monster boxes being sold on one coin network when silver was around $7 an ounce, they worked out about $12 an ounce I think. I remember thinking back when silver was approaching $48 an ounce, that people who bought them could make out like a Bandit lol.

 

Actually, I wonder what their overhead expenses are...I started to mention that earlier and then deleted it. National TV broadcasting, all those smiling hosts, production crews, equipment, plus the inventory itself. I doubt he profit margins are as high as one would think...like a root canal.

 

I agree with this. People have the right to ask whatever they want for some luxury item like this, no one is forced to pay those prices. There is definitely a difference between a scam and being overpriced

 

I also wonder if they have dictated profit margins from the network where everything has to average out to a certain amount of profit