PCGS Grading - Details

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by Soiled, Dec 6, 2016.

  1. Soiled

    Soiled Everyone has coin Avatars. I chose space.

    I've bought many coins from them over the years and haven't returned any. This is the first time and i do believe they bear some responsibility for it given they're advertisement and seemingly enhancement of pictures. I'm the customer and at the end Of the day......thx for the responses.
     
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  3. Silverhouse

    Silverhouse Well-Known Member

    I took the advice of others on this thread about GSC, and never bought anything from them. With this company's reputation, I'd even be suspect of graded coins. Someone once said in another thread on here, that GSC roams the big coin shows looking for problem coins that are graded, and they crack them out to resell them. Don't know how true that is, and I forgot who said it. So to me THAT is being outright deceitful if they do that, and don't include the that in the coin description when reselling. It's probably why they did refund the OP's money after 6 weeks. Anything to keep that 100% success rate right? ( Include that the coin is a problem coin, not a crack out )
     
  4. wxcoin

    wxcoin Getting no respect since I was a baby

    In the past I've bought some raw coins from another eBay seller that advertises many high grade coins as does GSC. All of the coins were early date Lincoln and Indian cents and all were given details grades because of questionable color. Good photography can make a coin look too good to be true and I learned a valuable lesson. Do I buy a coin to get it slabbed or do I buy a coin that I like? I choose the latter these days. I'm sure these eBay dealers would have slabbed many of these nice looking coins if they had original color since they could get more money for them.

    I still buy both raw and slabbed coins if I find ones I like. I'm just not looking for the deal of the century since it's probably too good to be true.
     
  5. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    If you could please post your eBay ID so that those of us who wish to may block you it would be greatly appreciated that. That type of attitude is why many sellers have left or rolled back how much they use eBay as a venue. For all of their faults they do offer a 30 day return period which is long past. As I said before I am not a fan of how they image, but you had the coins in hand and sent them in anyway. It is every bit as bad to just buy a bunch of coins and then return the ones well after the return period that didn't grade how you wanted while keeping the ones that did. Again if one had come back fake that would be a different story
     
    MMiller750 likes this.
  6. Ana Silverbell

    Ana Silverbell Well-Known Member

    The trade dollar has die polish lines but without holding the coin in hand it is hard to tell if it doesn't also have scratches from a cleaning, it may. Apart from scratches, I think it was cleaned because the fields appear uneven in color.

    The Indian cent's color looks unnatural to me.

    I like the Peace dollar. I don't see any issues with it but that could change if I had it in hand.

    I don't know about the Indian gold. I have no experience with them.

    As far as GSC goes, I do not buy from them because it appears to me that the bids on their coins tend to be higher compared to comparable coins/sellers on eBay: i.e., the bids almost always rise higher than my pre-set, upper limit. Has anyone else noticed this? This may be because GSC has a high number of loyal, repeat buyers but I don't know.

    As far as keeping the coins, it depends on the price you paid compared to the value of a similar "details" coin. I probably would return all of them but the Peace dollar. I would break it out and keep it raw. It's a nice piece.
     
  7. SuperDave

    SuperDave Free the Cartwheels!

    GSC is one of those dealers for whom you ignore any evidence of shill bidding - they have what may be the most robust customer base on Ebay, and there are likely plenty of people who do 90% or more of their buying from them. They don't need shill bidders.

    It would be a disservice to say that every coin they offer is inappropriately represented, or doctored. They offer far too many coins for that. @jwitten, for example, speaks of very satisfying purchases from them and in his specialty I trust his judgement completely, few better. On the other hand, it really takes an expert in the imaging niche to properly evaluate their presentations, meaning there are some less-expert folks out there who have some ugly surprises coming down the road from their purchases. I think we might have seen that here.

    They do not offer a darn thing in their practices which we could hang a factual "prosecution" on. Any argument against them amounts to legislating morality, and the things you might judge "worst" about their practices is easily defeated by becoming a more knowledgeable numismatist yourself. So yeah, there they are, and I don't like how they do things, but they have no power over me and I'd buy from them. If it came to a united hobby (as if :) ) rising up and universally refusing to deal with sellers who do what they do, they'd probably be the first of their peers to sail with the new wind. They're no dummies, and I have to admit a grudging admiration of how well they do what they do.
     
  8. Ana Silverbell

    Ana Silverbell Well-Known Member

    No one said GSC uses shill bidders. I certainly did not. (Granted, some members said other unflattering things). It never occurred to me that GSC could be using shill bidders. I just assumed bidding was robust because of GSC's numerous, loyal buyers. But I am curious how you know GSC doesn't use shill bids; or, maybe more precisely, why should a buyer ignore any evidence of shill bidding. Isn't all the evidence part of a buyer's decision making process when bidding for a coin?
     
  9. Soiled

    Soiled Everyone has coin Avatars. I chose space.

    So in other words, if they misrepresent themselves in their advertisement and I don't 'timely' catch it, I'm out of luck? Sorry you feel that way.
     
  10. Silverhouse

    Silverhouse Well-Known Member

    You can't blame a buyer for getting a details coin, if in fact that coin was advertised as problem free. To me it's all on the seller. Sure some of us coin collectors should know better, but the fact remains, it's outright deception.
     
  11. C G Memminger

    C G Memminger Active Member

    Who is the authority on IHP die pairings? I need education on the enclosed 9.
     
  12. jwitten

    jwitten Well-Known Member

    If it is listed as unc, and it gets unc details, cleaned, or unc details, questionable color, isn't is still "unc"?
     
  13. RonSanderson

    RonSanderson Supporter! Supporter

    This must be what you are referring to. This is copied from the PCGS TrueView. (http://www.pcgs.com/cert/82496475) On the obverse there are a lot of lines but they never cross onto the devices.

    On the reverse the entire area of AMERICA is a different color and texture.

    Is it possible to create such lines by mechanical means so that you never cross onto the devices by accident? Or is there a way to clean just the fields without crossing into the small crevices in the letters. If this is cleaning, it must have taken a really steady hand - and note that the lines are generally straight, so you have to exclude any kind of rotary tool.

    Still confused; this seems like a good teaching opportunity for someone!

    upload_2016-12-7_15-59-16.png upload_2016-12-7_15-55-42.png
     
  14. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    As I said if you returned them especially the trade dollar for not looking like the picture no one would have a problem with that, but you were happy enough to send it in and it is past their return period now. Would you walk into a coin shop buy a bunch of coins and then come back almost two months later saying you want to return some because they didn't grade how you thought and/or wanted?

    It wasn't they specifically state authenticity is all they guarantee. I know a lot of people will be fine with this given who the seller is, but the problem is the precedent it sets. If people just start buying inventory off eBay and returning anything they didn't upgrade with reconsideration or CAC or grade how they wanted from a raw purchase months later the coin market on eBay is going to die off very quickly and be nothing but major dealers that can afford a percentage of buyers consistently doing that to them though prices will rise to compensate for that fact.

    If someone gets something and it doesn't match by all means return it, just don't send everything in for grading and only return the grades that they weren't happy with almost two months later
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2016
  15. BooksB4Coins

    BooksB4Coins Newbieus Sempiterna

    In this case, yes, one most certainly can blame the buyer. Take a look at the listings and do notice how they CLEARLY state they do "not guarantee grades on raw coins, and that they "guarantee authenticity only"? This matters and is there for a very good reason. If a buyer chooses to ignore it, they rightfully have no reason to place blame upon anyone other than themselves.

    I understand your point, yes, and agree that their approach may be deceptive, but responsibility rests with the buyer to know and understand what they're purchasing. All too often today, and especially on this forum, the crutch of "deception" and/or "misrepresentation" is used as an excuse for poor buying decisions, and for the benefit of both this hobby needs to stop.

    No matter how often many of us press the issue of learning/knowledge, the fact is many buyers/collectors, for many and sometimes completely reasonable/valid reasons, choose not to and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. However, when one makes the decision not to learn, it's their responsibility to take a path which allows them to buy safely and wisely. Unfortunately though, such paths usually come at a cost, and is the very reason so many choose to avoid them, instead rolling the dice as if they can magically outsmart those possessing the very knowledge they've chosen to avoid. When one without the necessary knowledge to do so chooses to buy raw and plans to submit, it is almost always as a way to get a deal or to avoid paying what they otherwise would have to in order to get what they want. How many times on this very board have we seen someone take this approach, as if they're the first ones to think of it, and utterly fail? We need stop making excuses for them and instead try to get them to see the folly of their actions. I realize doing so may come off as negative or not nice, but sometimes the greater good requires a little "tough friendship" as opposed to handholding.
     
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  16. Soiled

    Soiled Everyone has coin Avatars. I chose space.

    I'm not asking for a guarantee of a grade at all, just that it grades. These coins did not grade. Further they advertise a high grade and clearly 'enhance' photographs. Some of there adverts actually state detailed coin. If it graded FR01 or MS70, I wouldn't care. As long as it grades. It didn't and they bear responsibility. This has nothing to do with 'learning' as you put it because the pictures were 'enhanced.' I am not looking for a hug, just a fair transaction. Some sellers try to get away with unscrupulous practices. Is there a time limit on that? Caveat Emptor? Unless I alter my DNA to penetrate these photo enhancements, I doubt I could discern the true nature of the coin. Further, ebay views it as a problem and GSC seemingly has a liberal return policy which is good but it may also be that they are aware of issues with some of there sales.
     
  17. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    As soon as it was in hand you could have. No one has disputed that their photos appear to not be true to in hand most of the time, but once you send them in and their return period passes returning it because the grade wasn't what you wanted is where the problem is. The time to return it was when you got it and saw the photos weren't accurate
     
  18. Soiled

    Soiled Everyone has coin Avatars. I chose space.

    The point is it didn't grade. Details is not a grade. If they said BU and its and AU-55 I wouldn't complain. It didn't grade. They rep'd it would, but they were wrong and b/c of that I will return them.
     
  19. C-B-D

    C-B-D Well-Known Member

    Crazy thing is... you could resubmit them and they may grade the second time. TPG's render an opinion. That opinion can change on a daily basis.
     
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  20. jwitten

    jwitten Well-Known Member

    Honestly, what do you want them to say? They said what their opinion of the grade was, then state they do not guarantee that it is that, just that that is their opinion. I mostly agree with their opinions. If I do not, I do not bid as much. Ever see the guess the grade posts? People's opinions can be all over the board.
     
  21. ddddd

    ddddd Member

    This was my thought as well as @jwitten comment about the GTG posts. You can have tons of peoplet say a grade and then the coin is just not right for PCGS or NGC or another TPG.

    There is some incentive to giving out details grades: the resubmission process and all the associated fees.

    On a raw coin, especially something not modern, it's virtually impossible to guarantee a straight grade. Remember it takes just one grader to disagree and you have a details coin.

    While I'm not on Great Southern's side, @BooksB4Coins and @baseball21 make strong arguments. When one gets a coin in hand, that's the best time to decide if it should be returned. The opinion of PCGS should not override your initial impressions.
     
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