Buying and Selling ethical question...

So I just need some expert opinions for the forum members on this one...I am sure there is a simple reason for this but it just seems ridiculous. Here it goes:

Lets say a person buys a coin from a coin dealer and takes is "out" of the holder to get it authenticated only to have the dealer say that he broke an implied contract when it was taken out of the holder. How can this be correct. My first inclination is that once the buyer buys the coin is his.

He owns it and whatever he does with the coin(with the exception of purposely destroying it) is his business. What guarantee is broken? How can this be a legal problem for the seller (coin dealer) if it was bought by the buyer? I understand that the wise thing to do is to have the dealer authenticate it before he buys it; but then the seller has to inquire the costs. Any input is appreciated and please no fighting...I am just wondering. Thanks in advance guys.

 

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I presume the piece left out of the description is that the implied contract is one where the buyer could return the coin if it is shown to not be authentic, but it must be returned in the same condition as it was sold.

 

You question is kind of confusing?

So a buyer bought a coin, it was in a slabbed holder? Or was it like from the Mint in one of their holders? or are we talking a 2x2 flip? Please be a little more specific.

Then the buyer removed it from the holder?

Ok what ever the buyer does with the coin, even if he destroys it, that's the buyers business. It only concerns the seller if there was a money back guarantee. If the coin was slabbed, and removed, well yeah the condition the seller sold it was changed. Same if it was a mint set or say a mint slab. Like the silver american eagle from the mint, or the gold dime or quarter. Those come in a mint sealed plastic holder. Removed from that holder that voids any guarantee from the seller. The only legal involvement from the sellers is, they won't take the coin back no matter what. The buyer now fully owns the coin. If they find it not up to the grade they wanted, or what ever reason, it is not coming back, all guarantees are voided.

 

If a "dealer" does not want to honor a guarantee due to removal from holder by a TPG who then bodybags it, I would say it isn't a real dealer at all. Seems like a recipe for bad reputation building.

 

2X2 flip

 

I think this would depend on the holder as I asked. Say this was a PCGS black slab holder. Which the holder itself could be worth more than the coin in question. Without details you don't know. You crack that slab and well you destroyed value.

Also, as I said with some mint products, they are worth more in the mint package which is now destroyed. Again hard to say for sure without details, but like Banco De Mexico has some elaborate packaging on Mint coins which are a work of art in themselves.

 

Oh, well then the seller is off his rocker. I wouldn't do business with them at least again. One of the first things I do when I get home with new coins in just simple flips is take them out. I then photograph them, catalog them and put them in brand new non pvc flips. Then add to an album. My only thought was in if there was some special holder.

 

I'm assuming eBay?

Just because someone puts rare coins behind their names and sells coins doesn't make them a dealer! Most that do this can't tell if the coin you return is what they sent out. Thanks to the dishonest practices of many buyers.

One would also could say you had it in hand you should be able confirm authenticity of said piece and by removing from original holder your acceptance of said piece

 

I can appreciate your point. I just figured if it were a slab he would have written that instead of 'holder' which I tend to regard as something other than a TPG or US Mint holder unless specifically noted.

 

Is it safe to assume that you've never sold a coin/coins to someone who wished to return them only after they've been damaged? I have, and you can say what you want, but it wasn't my responsibility to play insurance company or eat a loss due to someone else's actions or stupidity. In some cases taking the return even though they've been removed is completely reasonable, especially if dealing with a known long time customer/client, the coin clearly hasn't been damaged/is the same, or it is of a low enough value for it not to really matter, but as a blanket policy, not a chance.

The whole point of accepting a return as long as the coin hasn't been removed from its original (when purchased) holder, and this includes simple flips, is to ensure it is still in its original AS SOLD condition. Let's say that when placing one of your newps in the album, the coin was dropped and is now damaged; should the dealer have to shoulder damage YOU caused? Of course not, or let's say you decided to dip one of the coins, over did it, and burnt the luster off; again, is this his fault? You may be one of the reasonable who wouldn't think of trying to return such a coin (I don't know), but the fact is that there are many out there who wouldn't think twice about it. In fact, this policy is the result not of bad or unfair dealers, but collectors who demand to have their cake and eat it too.

 

I used to enjoy reading the "Ethics" column in the Numismatist, because it is subjects like this that are so often discussed.

Chris

 

Numismatics use to be more of a trusting and responsible group. As with all things, changes occur. I suspect most due to the many books and videos on how to make fortunes with coins, the mint and their flooding of coins everyone should or feel they have to own no matter what the price , and of course the scammers and scoundrels, ebay, auction houses and slabbers , and the MS-70 only mentality. I have been very tempted lately to go back to philately or gems...imagine the oldies there, that even though they have depreciated, still grab me. Especially my pre-1940 US, and some specialty albums

 

If the holder in question is a TPG holder, then I can understand not taking the coin back, as the holder adds to the market value. If not, as long as the coin is in as-sold condition, a return should be allowed.

 

You remove it from its holder--REGARDLESS of the type of holder--you own it. If you want to send it in for grading/regrading then either make an agreement with the seller that he will take it back if it doesn't make the expected grade prior to removing it or accept the responsibility for yourself.

The only exception would be a coin that was found to be altered/counterfeit in which case it should always be returnable.

 

The simple and obvious answer to your question (if I understand correctly) is simply for the buyer to do the obvious and open his mouth at the time of purchase, tell the dealer of his intent and ASK for an exception. Most reasonable dealers will, with most coins (although there can be exceptions) work with the buyer on the policy if they know the plan is to submit. This is the easiest solution there is, but if a buyer, for whatever reason doesn't want to do so, that's his choice and therefore his problem as well.

Unfortunately, I've found the sad truth to be that many so-called collectors haven't the slightest problem holding a dealer to a completely different standard than they would hold themselves to. Let me ask you this: if you sold a coin to a dealer, or even a fellow collector, and while trying to "conserve" it, he somehow screwed it up, or let's say he simply dropped it, leaving a large ding, or scraped it with a staple while removing from a flip. How would you feel if he called you, not asking but demanding you take it back and issue a 100% refund? When put this way it has been my experience that most collectors are appalled at the very idea, so why should things be any different when it's a dealer? Condition can be EVERYTHING in this business, and once it's gone, it's gone.

Another thing to consider is that it's not unheard of for so-called collectors to try and switch out coins, and then want to return the lesser example. While a collector may know each of their coins inside and out, the same cannot always be said for a dealer, especially when it comes to more common material sold in person. I could go on and on, but the point should be fairly clear. Such policies are not to stick it to the poor lil collector, but exist mostly as a simple precaution intended to protect the interests of the business. Flips, while not perfect, generally offer buyers the ability to authenticate (as is your concern) a coin while its still inside them. It may not be ideal, but isn't an unreasonable trade off.

 

Yes it does! Trust me, I'm selling you coins!

Sincerely,

CEO - TV Coin Vault Rare Coins

 

The seller's policy is not uncommon in this day of scamming buyers. It's fairly standard procedure. Notice I didn't say I was GOOD procedure; it just is what we have today. At auctions I attend (non-Internet) you have A FEW SECONDS to decide if you want to have a coin certified because of an authenticity concern. The moment you hand over the money, YOU'RE DONE! No refunds even for fakes. Those are the rules and they are in writing.

 

I once got a fake $20 bill from a bank ATM and they wouldn't even make THAT good. The bank is still in business.

Same reason as the auction - no way to prove it's the same piece.