Buying Ancients, some questions

I have no problem with this. As a VCoins dealers yes, many people ask for discounts. Same as a coin show. If you cant, say no, if you can, say yes, XXX%.

Very few (actual) dealers dont need your business. We ALL need you business. Anyone who thinks else is really not a dealer but just a collector who has no interest in selling what they have.

VCoins is the same way, precisely. We enter ship dates and tracking numbers, but it is voluntary (as is Ebay). Ebay (and Vcoins) does not require it, but advises that we do so. It is best for us to enter the data, but not everyone does. Goes back to the topic of whether or not one is a 'real' dealer or just a collector offering his items. Most who say they are dealers are not so, just hobbyists. In 30 years I have known just about all the dealers personally. These days, well, if one has a computer, yup, you can say you are a 'dealer'.

I dont like haggling, though I understand it is an intergral part of the business. Over the decades I have experimented with pricing. Low, high, insanely cheap, etc. People will always ask for a better price, no matter what the situation. I list my coins at the industry average or lower. But I will always entertain any offer. It only takes a second to say 'no'.

https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/ken_dorney-52/ancient-coins/Default.aspx?

 

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Wow, Doug, you are a gentleman! But, you have been around long enough to know the aspects of the business (though most here have no idea). Yes, I am one of the few who are in business to put food on the table (it is all I do). Yes, I mark my coins up. Sometimes 1% to, well heck, hundreds, but also I lose money. I might pay $100 for a coin and sell it for $5. The bottom line is that when I need to feed my kids, I will sell. They come first. But I also wish to be around so I always hope that I can not only make enough to feed the kids but also buy something else to replace what I just sold. It is very hard and very unappreciated. In the old days dealers were almost always demonized, but I have seen that nowadays it is not so bad. No collectors = no dealers. No dealers = no collectors (though there have been many who have argued (strangely) that it is not so.

 

I agree with whoever said check with dealers regarding method of payment, especially European dealers. I have bought several coins through Nomos in Switzerland and they accept my check in $US written on a US bank!

 

Yes, if the auction house is too hard to deal with, I don't bother. I focus on auctions by CNG, Nomos, Roma and Agora. There's plenty of auction houses and an abundance of coins out there. Sooner or later, the Antinous medallion I need will appear in an "easy" auction house. I'm not going to chase it in an auction house that is a PITA.

If auction houses don't make it easy for the customer, if they don't provide services appropriate for the 21st century global market, they will die.

 

I occasionally ask a dealer for what I consider to be a reasonable discount - especially if i know what the dealer paid for it at an auction, and I think the markup is over-the-top.

I do think it is disrespectful when people ask for ridiculous discounts. I was selling a $1000 Athens tetradrachm on eBay, and someone offered $100 for it. So the buyer thinks they deserve something for almost nothing, and the seller deserves nothing? Rude. Blocked.

 

I have time left in the day and I am on a roll, so I apologize if I am monopolizing the thread. As regards to mark up and what a dealer has paid and the discounts one might take. ...Just an example: I bought a coin on Ebay some time ago for $550. Research ultimately showed that it sold in a major auction three years ago for $525 plus commissions but is now slabbed (so I guess his cost was roughly $615 plus slabbing fees). I am currently offering it at $600. No bites as yet (though many dealers have offered me $250 or less). BUT, it is unique and unpublished. There isnt another example out there and if you want it I have the only one. You have to pay my price or you simply wont own it. Done deal. I honestly think $50 profit for me (or 8%) is really quite fair. BUT, others may disagree.

 

Isnt he great folks? Both times I've bought from him have been a delight. I'm not in the business of offering flattery, but some people trully deserve every bit of it.

 

I have been in the business world all of my career, and being in a family of business owners, I have learned: Always treat the business you are doing with respect and that you will be working with that person in the future. I never really look at asking a discount, as "sales", "discounts", time dependent "special prices" as all of that are marketing hype. Rather, I like to review the market, review the economic conditions, review my needs, etc. and offer what I feel is a fair price for BOTH parties. I am more interested in striking a trust between us for the transaction. If we are both happy, future business can be beneficial for both of us again. Sometimes a reasonable price could be 50% of what a person is offering. The market may had changed, or perhaps they were not aware. Sometimes, I may feel the offered price is 50% of what it should be. That is a deal for me. There are truly no set prices for anything. It is what the market will bear that is the actual price.

So when I offer a price, I am usually coming from the position that both of us should benefit. After all, we are a communicative species: either side of the transaction can say "no" at any point. Asking is no harm, no foul. All a "no" is in a transaction is a YES answer with the conditions not being met by both parties.

 

Thanks Oz! That is flattering. And it means a lot to me. In the old days I printed paper catalogs and sold coins, but never heard back from most the customers (it took time, effort and a few cents to send a letter, a concept few understand now)!

Yep! It takes a second to ask, a second to deny or accept. No loss on either side (at least for me).

 

I've gone to www.forumancientcoins.com many times. I trust the site and have gotten some really great coins.

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I know a guy who uses that exact phrase. Is his name Richard by any chance? The guy I'm thinking of has some pretty high quality, affordable stuff, and he's a great guy.

 

As an antiquarian book dealer from Europe, I occasionally accept American checks too - if the amount is large enough. Cashing one check costs me $ 65 plus going to the bank in person plus waiting many weeks for the money. Nomos, a big international company, probably has its own American bank account, so there will be no problem.

 

As an old book seller, people are asking for discounts all the time. We are giving a standard 10 % discount to colleagues and to some nice and faithful clients. For the others, we always consider. Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't. A lot depends on the way it is asked. Most sellers are human, too, you know. A friendly question will be rewarded, a haughty 'bid' because you are deemed much too expensive has less chance.
As for asking twice what you bought the object for, I'm afraid that's very reasonable - if you are a professional. You have to pay taxes (very high in Europe), rents, insurance and other overhead costs, we have to feed three mouths and try to keep some money in the till for the next buy. And people keep asking for discounts, so you almost never receive 100 % of what you are asking.

 

I have no issue with a dealer using a 100% markup for the reasons you listed. However, I expect those dealers to have acquired those coins at something resembling "wholesale" price. I can think of at least one high-end Vcoins dealer who often has expensive coins from recently closed auctions and the hammer prices weren't really "steals". I would be very surprised if that dealer ever sells the coins for such lofty prices. Surely anyone shopping in that price bracket would have seen the coin at the recent auction. I wonder what his average discount is when such coins are sold. I'm assuming the coins were bought at auction by the dealer but they could be consignments (unlikely, given the very short time between auction closing and listing in his store).

Perhaps this is an example of what Doug described in post 39 of this thread:

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/buying-ancients-some-questions.284360/page-2#post-2529093

 

Well, we rarely do consignments, but in that case, there are other rules. As for wholesale buying, that also rarely occurs with our shop.
But if you are able to buy a nice item for one dollar, it's not obligatory to sell it for two or less. You can ask a 'normal' price, even if that's 100 or 1000. Any professional seller will tell you that against one lucky buy, you have hundreds of ordinary and expensive buys, and also a lot of items you will carry with you forever, that never sell.

 

In this and many cases, 8% is more than reasonable but there is one really big problem I see differently from most in the business. Coins have a market value in the minds of those who have them and those who want them. Sometimes we see a coin sold at auction to a dealer who immediately sells it for a profit (large or small) to another dealer who knows a buyer/investor who consigns the coin to another auction where it is expected to sell for enough to provide him a profit even after paying the auction house for their services not to mention multiple mailings and perhaps a slab fee. A few generations in rapid sequence will add enough fair profits (8% to one dealer, 20% buyer's fee, $25 postage etc.) that the coin simply is not worth buying. That will put someone into the position of deciding to take a loss now to free up cash and sitting on it for 5 or 50 years until expected inflation catches up with what we have in the coin (by then, buyer's fees will be 50% and postage $50 but that is another story).

I reject the concept that everyone is entitled to a profit be it, 8% or 80%, on a purchase just because they made it. The trick is to look at a situation and decide which ones are moving up with room for our level in the marketing scheme and which ones are ready to produce someone a loss to offset things like postage, utilities and mistakes along the way. Dealers are in business to make sure the one who realizes this loss is the collector or his family. They have to offer to buy for less than market. The ones who are not able to do this can only rely on inflation to avoid being the one without a chair when the music stops.

 

I know who you mean, I have known him for many years. Nice guy, but our business models do not mesh.

True, depending on where, when and the situation, all us dealers mark up our coins from either a negative number to a very high number. It just all depends. But, "wholesale" does not really exist anymore, at not as it pertains to most dealers. Sure, there are countries where one can buy directly from those who dug them out of their flower garden, but for the most part it doesnt exist. Wholesale in this instance can be just explained as one dealer selling to another, regardless of any other criteria.

I dont know which VCoins dealer you refer to, but honestly, if you have a computer and a coin, you can easily present yourself as a dealer. Many people selling online are just hobbyists and dont care if they sell anything or not. But that is another discussion.

Very true Doug. Some coins simply 'make the rounds' not finding a home with a collector, just a temporary one with dealers. At some point the last person in the chain will lose, and maybe big time. Who knows? It may be that the current $1,000 coin was appropriately priced originally at $50. The market will take care of that, but there will be some hard losses and learning for some.

I agree. I have lost many dollars on many deals. I dont feel as if I am 'owned' a profit. Heck, when I run sales on my site, I usually lose on many, but profit on others. Its a crap shoot.

I am not sure I agree with you here. It's not my business to make someone lose money, but in some cases that is very true. If a consignor shows me a coin he bought a few months ago, yea, they will take a loss. But if they show me coins they bought 30 years ago, they will take a darned good profit.

 

In ancient coins I would call it wholesale when my grandson takes my coins to the Baltimore show and offers the entire lot to table holders as a group not letting them pick and choose. It is a fact that very few dealers are anxious to buy a thousand Severan coins or a thousand late Romans or a thousand anything but those who do will not pay what I paid even considering the 50 year spread of acquisition dates. That is what I meant when I said the collector or his family will bear the loss. Seriously, who among you or who in their right mind would like to buy my entire collection for half of 'retail'? Quarter?

Many of the coins I have been showing from the show Friday came from a dealer stock being liquidated on behalf of a long time dealer whose health requires the conversion of a huge number of coins into a currency accepted by long term care or hospice (fact: many of us have one of tose in ur futures). I doubt many of the coins being sold now are turning a great profit but bringing more than the thousands that I and the other show goers declined. Thousands of collectors die leaving coins to family. How many get back what Grandpa paid?

 

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