Scammed using PayPal gift, what to do next?

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by MMiller750, Sep 21, 2016.

  1. Blissskr

    Blissskr Well-Known Member

    This true but if you don't go through PP's process and simply file a charge back Paypal will close your account with them.
     
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  3. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    I'm sorry to hear it. I've gotten counterfeit coins at least half a dozen times on eBay where the seller wasn't willing to make it right, and in every case eBay made me whole. Some of these were four-figure purchases.
     
    Grass Man likes this.
  4. Blissskr

    Blissskr Well-Known Member

    Also OP I'm pretty sure you can still open a dispute on a F&F transaction by calling PP if it's not listed in the options online. The only caveat with it is that it's simply going to be an open dispute and the seller is going to have to decide to settle it (if the dispute notification has any effect on them). If escalated to a claim you will immediately lose per PP's TOS. Although if you can perhaps collude with the others that have been scammed I think at the very least PP would freeze the sellers account which could prevent them from continuing to scam others.
     
  5. Grass Man

    Grass Man Member

    I waited just a little too long to get an order together for PCGS and they held that coin for about two months, leaving me about two weeks too late to file a claim. I filed anyway, but both PAYPAL and the credit card company rejected the claim as untimely. Paypal now has about a six month period from the date of purchase within which to open a case.
     
  6. MMiller750

    MMiller750 Active Member

    Well I am going to fight it, I hope I don't have to go past PayPal but if I do then I will push it until the end.
    It is a good learning experience and definitely my last PayPal gift transaction. I am hoping this isn't going to be an expensive learning lesson but I am worried it might be.
     
  7. Grass Man

    Grass Man Member

    I wish you the best, but litigation will at a minimum be $5,000 on a little case like that.
     
    Paul M. likes this.
  8. Vess1

    Vess1 CT SP VIP Supporter

    I wouldn't blame paypal for this loss and use it as a reason never to use them again. Most have used it for many years without issue. You ran into a thief and paid the only way you were unprotected. This might not ever happen again your entire life and probably wouldn't. This is a really hard lesson. I'd want to find him even if it meant losing more money to do so.
     
    joecoincollect likes this.
  9. Cascade

    Cascade CAC Variety Nerd

    If I wanted to throw more money at finding this guy I'd hire a private detective service and give them all the info you have thus far then another thousandish to have a reputable firm shoot off a very intimidating letter to him. You'd probably be a few thousand into it though not including the loss with no guarantee on return of principal. You are really in a mess of your own making though unfortunately.
     
    joecoincollect likes this.
  10. SuperDave

    SuperDave Free the Cartwheels!

    There's an Ebay seller by that name with a long record (since 2003) of successful sales of really nice ($Hundreds and into 4 figures per coin) pieces, but that record ended over a year ago (from Ebay Feedback). The two most likely scenarios - speaking from experience; I've been the Moderator of an active Buy/Sell forum and had to chase down trolls as part of the job - are an account takeover by a relative/acquaintance with fewer morals or a hack by a third party, and/or a major life event which put the original seller into a really bad place and forced him into a different behavior pattern. Very, very rarely - especially with someone dealing at this level - does a seller just make the choice to "go troll."

    My point being, the perpetrator might not even be the person who originally built up that stellar selling rep. That person may not even be among the living any longer. So, although there's information to be gleaned from previous customers (for instance), that information might not be relevant any longer and indeed would serve to harm the reputation of someone who doesn't deserve it while throwing you off the correct track. You have to move very_carefully in situations like this.
     
    Dave Waterstraat and Endeavor like this.
  11. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

    There is something about the name "KPcoins". I remember it from somewhere. Maybe from one of the boards. It's bugging me.
     
  12. Burton Strauss III

    Burton Strauss III Brother can you spare a trime? Supporter

    There is a point about throwing good money after bad, and more to the point the place where where YOU become the bad guy.

    You gave a gift. Or you've admitted that you committed conspiracy to defraud PayPal. No court is going to enforce a contract to commit fraud. No reputable lawyer will take such a case.

    Also: hiring a private detective or a lawyer to harass somebody or extort money from them? YOU are the criminal. Both of those are against the law.
     
    joecoincollect likes this.
  13. Cascade

    Cascade CAC Variety Nerd

    Who said harass. You hire the PI to locate the guy then have a lawyer fire off a letter to him to try and recoup the lost principal which just about any lawyer will do for a handsome fee. Who really cares about the means of payment however nearsighted it may have been. I do agree that it would be throwing good money after bad however
     
    Grass Man likes this.
  14. Burton Strauss III

    Burton Strauss III Brother can you spare a trime? Supporter

    Why wouldn't a lawyer send this letter? Because you have no legal claim... you gave a gift or settled up your share of a lunch bill (must have been one HECK of a lunch).

    https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full
    "Personal Payment" means amounts sent between two individuals (not to or from a business) without a purchase. Examples of Personal Payments include sending a gift to a friend or paying a friend back for your share of a lunch bill.

    4. Receiving Money.
    4.1 Receiving Personal Payments. If you are selling goods or services, you may not ask the buyer to send you a Personal Payment for the purchase. If you do so, PayPal may remove your ability to accept Personal Payments.

    9. Restricted Activities.
    9.1 Restricted Activities. In connection with your use of our website, your Account, the PayPal Services, or in the course of your interactions with PayPal, other Users, or third parties, you will not:
    a. Breach this Agreement, the Commercial Entity Agreement, the Acceptable Use Policy or any other agreement or policy that you have agreed to with PayPal;

    10.3 Actions by PayPal - Restricted Activities. If PayPal, in its sole discretion, believes that you may have engaged in any Restricted Activities, we may take various actions to protect PayPal, other Users, other third parties, or you from Reversals, Chargebacks, Claims, fees, fines, penalties and any other liability. The actions we may take include but are not limited to the following:
    a. We may close, suspend, or limit your access to your Account or the PayPal Services (such as limiting access to any of your Payment Methods, and/or your ability to send money, make withdrawals, or remove financial Information). Use the Report Form link to request information in connection with an account limitation, hold or reserve – to access the Report Form, go to https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/helpcenter/helphub/home/?dwf=neg_infolimit
    c. We may contact Users who have purchased goods or services from you, contact your bank or credit card issuer, and/or warn other Users, law enforcement, or impacted third parties of your actions;
    e. We may refuse to provide the PayPal Services to you in the future;
    g. We may take legal action against you; and
    i. PayPal, in its sole discretion, reserves the right to terminate this Agreement, access to its website, or access to the PayPal Services for any reason and at any time upon notice to you and payment to you of any unrestricted funds held in your Balance.
     
  15. Cascade

    Cascade CAC Variety Nerd

    They'll shoot off a letter if you pay them or have a large retainer with them. Guaranteed. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one B.
     
  16. fretboard

    fretboard Defender of Old Coinage!

    Absolutely! Used to be, any lawyer would send a letter for $75. IDK how much it is now. With that said, a lowlife who's going to take your money like that is not gonna budge with a letter only. I suggest, you start calling his house and work regularly in the hopes that he has some decency left in his sleezy a$$ but the problem remains. Sorry but, you gifted him money and legally there wasn't a contract so he owes you nothing. good luck on giving him what he deserves! Send Rocky after him. tmoney.gif

    Rocky.jpg
     
    joecoincollect likes this.
  17. Grass Man

    Grass Man Member

    The only recourse the "buyer" has (assuming he has proper documentation) is breach of contract by the "seller". Did the seller commit a crime? yes. Was it mail or wire fraud? probably. Is the US Attorney going to get involved when the buyer had dirty hands? Doubtful. That leaves you with an action in small claims court for the jurisdiction in which the seller resides. While the rules of evidence may be relaxed in small claims court, you'd better have your case ready or the judge will throw it out. If you get your judgment, then you have to collect it. You are unlikely going to be able to garnish his wages or lien his property without the assistance of a lawyer. Cha ching. Like my $700 to that thief Walter Dardar in Mississippi, you reach a point where the end no longer justifies the means. It's not always financially better to be right than on the losing end of a case in which you are right. I don't see paypal as being involved in this at all, since the gift transfer is simply a means of anonymously transferring money from your account to someone else's without any consideration paid to PP. They have no obligation to you unless you have paid them to conduct the transaction.
     
    Paul M. likes this.
  18. Grass Man

    Grass Man Member

    I had a very reliable seller in Louisiana, who had a name indicating he was of the Christian faith. No negative feedbacks. Suddenly he disappeared from ebay about a dozen years ago and started getting negative feedbacks. He showed up a couple years later and I wrote him and asked what had happened to him during his absence. He told me that Katrina had wiped him out and ruined his business. Another reason not to use the "gift" option unless you can afford to take the risk is that mail disappears and calamities such as storms and plane crashes occasionally occur.
     
  19. SuperDave

    SuperDave Free the Cartwheels!

    This is the kind of thing I was talking about, above. In many cases, nobody is more surprised than the miscreant when they get themselves into this situation. Bad behavior is learned behavior - babies aren't criminals.
     
  20. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    Okay, that earned a BIG double-take on this end.

    Babies are completely self-centered, and completely oblivious about "laws" -- and, as we all know, "ignorance of the law is no excuse". Babies are terrible, until they learn to be good (and/or bad).

    But I suppose there's no way to pursue this further without getting into religious or political territories. ;)
     
  21. Cascade

    Cascade CAC Variety Nerd

    http://www.thenoobdad.com/news/scientists-tell-parents-forget-american-idol-prepare-kids-for-prison/
     
    Paul M. likes this.
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