CNG 103 purchase

Mikey-Z => congrats, coin-brother ... your new addition is also a total gem (great coin)

 

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Great coin ancientnut. Congrats!

 

It's not clear to me what you mean by this sentence.

My understanding -- maybe faulty -- is that you think a coin's seller should be required to state (somewhere in the coin's description?) if he/she WON'T accept the seller's opening bid or estimate. But such a statement would completely undermine the opening bid or estimate. Really, what's the point of starting a bid at the opening amount if the seller has stated he/she won't accept this amount?

This is, I think, the essence of your post, and one with which I think most collectors would very strongly agree.

 

Congrats on finally scratching a big item off of your wantlist with a fantastic example!

 

I think what Doug is saying is that if a consignor is going to bid their own coin up to a certain amount over the opening bid(I.e. creating an invisible reserve of X by bidding up to X on their own coin) then it should be disclosed. I tend to agree with this, or actually I'd just prefer consignors not be allowed to bid on their lots and set the opening bid higher to whatever the true opening bid is if they aren't willing to accept a coin selling at the opening bid.

 

It is not the consignor/owner but the auction house rule I believe needs to be made clear. If a house starts lots at 60%, the start bid on a lot estimated at $10,000 would be $6000 and the coin should be required to sell if anyone bids that amount. If $6000 is not enough, the estimate could have been stated as $20,000 so the first bid would be $12,000 and potential bidders who believe the coin is not worth that much should bid on other coins. I don't think people could be stopped from bidding on their own lots but doing so would run the risk of buying the lot and being required to pay commissions including buyers' fees. Starting bids are kept low in the hope of attracting more bidders two of which will get into a shoving match but it would seem it should also carry a risk of selling the coin at start level. If only one person believes a coin is worth the start bid, the coin should sell for start. If a consignor is allowed to bid up his own lot and withdraw his last bid when he finds the top of the true bidder's interest, it is not a sale but extortion.

Exactly. Sellers and bidders have rights. Sellers have the right to state openly that they prefer to keep their coin than to sell it. Buyers have the right to buy at a level set by the competition not by the pie in the sky dreams of an investor who paid too much for a coin last time around.

 

This thread seems to have started a passionate discussion. I will only say that I am satisfied with the purchase and will pay almost 15 % less than the last two "sales." I have no idea whether the Roma or Nomos sales were reserves, buybacks or third party. I have seen a coin appear in 4 or 5 consecutive Roma sales. The fact that the two appearances of the OP coin were in two different auction houses in two different countries perhaps makes it more likely that at least one of the sales was "legitimate."

Doug, I can find no indication in any description of this type what kind of flower is under the crab. Any botanists out there with an opinion?

 

Are you sure auction houses let the coin owner withdraw his bid on his own coin, after he determines/guesses at the other bidder's limit? That is extortion.

 

Oh...and, Doug, the OP coin will not be sold again until after my death, although I can't say if that will be "long term" or not...

 

Outstanding win, ancientnut... I'm also keen to hear which picture you think best captures your coin in all its feathery, crabby glory .

@Mikey Zee, congrats... fantastic catch!

I was underbidder on my main CNG 103 target. Had I won it, it would easily have been the highlight of my collecting year. I missed out on several other targets as well, winning only a single coin. It looks awfully junky, but is historically interesting... a Roman Republic provincial showing with the portrait of the striking authority, Aulus Gabinius, the proconsular governor of Syria, who was given 10,000 silver talents by Ptolemy XII to invade Egypt and restore him to the throne. Gabinius would later be brought to trial in Rome for this act. The reverse legend of the coin - ΓABINIC OIEN NYΣH (of the People of Gabinian Nysa) - speaks to his patronage of the city of Nysa-Scythopolis.



ROMAN REPUBLIC
Aulus Gabinius, Legatus Syriae
AE20. 7.29g, 20mm. SYRIA, Nysa-Scythopolis mint, 57-55 BC. Barkay 1; RPC I 4826; HGC 10, 384. O: Wreathed head of Gabinius right; [GA to left]. R: ΓABINIC OIEN NYΣH (of the People of Gabinian Nysa), Nike advancing left, holding wreath and palm.
Ex Korwin Collection; Ex Classical Numismatic Group Electronic Auction 307 (24 July 2013), lot 205

 

That's so cool @zumbly!! I LOVE the historical context of coins and that's a type that would be welcome in my collection as well.

 

I would like to register at CNG to buy Borysthenes electrum trite, but I have not recieve any confirmation or answer from CNG on my registration form. Without any problems I have pass a registration at Roma and buy some El hektes there, but Roma does not offering Borysthenes El trite...

 

When I first saw it, it reminded me of a THISTLE:

 

I am sure that it is a thistle. The question is why they thought it important enough to put onto a coin?

 

That is exactly what led me to the question. We see a few identifiable plants on ancient coins. The Rhodian tulips are the name of the city but look rather little like the products of selective breeding we call tulips today. Silphium plants were valued for medicinal uses. We see similarly placed seashells which we find were important sources of valuable dyes. If the thistle is what we see here, what feature made it important? Perhaps thistles would be planted on purpose to ruin land for other uses. Perhaps an extract from the plant had a use we have since found a better solution (in the time of Vespasian, urine from public toilets was a valuable commodity in the garment industry but we don't do it that way now.... I don't think we do, anyway). There must be an answer. Are similar minor types seen on coins of other cities?

 

We can only guess as to the importance, real or imagined. Many have medicinal value (as you mention, Silphium), but could also have been as a food item (I do love artichokes!).

Urine is still used in some places. I was watching a Travel Channel program recently where the host was in (I think) Tunisia, and they were still using urine (I think for leather, but I dont remember). But, it was still being used. We may use chemicals now in 'developed' countries, but elsewhere urine is essentially free!

 

Thistle was my first thought too. Artichokes are thistles and are native to Sicily. Perhaps it is a young artichoke although it requires some imagination or perhaps artistic license on the part of the engraver.

I spent a bit of time last night going down various rabbit holes searching for the plant's identification and rationale for its inclusion on the coin

Pliny's Natural History seemed a good place to start but there is much to read.

Next I searched for a listing of fauna on Sicily. Unfortunately I didn't find a handy list which included pictures, plus it may require seeing parts of the plant or a state of development not shown on a general botanical index.

ValleyOfTheTemples.com's website (a tourism website for Agrigentum) has this to say, which might provide a lead:

"The happy geographic position, the fertility of hinterland that yielded cereals, wine and olive oil in abundance and the hilly nature of the territory that allowed stock- breeding favored the extraordinary development and prosperity of the new polis. In less than two centuries from the foundation, Akragas became one of the largest Greek cities and one of most thriving centres of Greek civilization."

Seeing that, I browsed Pliny looking for agricultural grasses, grains and cereals which could fit and which were local to Akragas. Eventually I had to move on to less fun (ie, non-coin) tasks.

It might be fruitful to send a picture of the coin the Botany department at a Sicilian university. Perhaps a professor or grad student might be able to make a more educated guess.

 

As I mentioned it will be impossible for us to figure out what it is and what the importance was. Like I said, likely food or medicine. I found this passage from 1907 (one can easily google it), a book on travel to Sicily:

Thistles in Sicily. There is a beautiful silver thistle found in Syracuse etc. Goethe mentions an estate quite overrun with large thistles. While seriously "meditating an agricultural campaign against them, we saw two Sicilian noblemen standing before a patch of these thistles, and with their pocket-knives cutting off the tops of the tall shoots. Then holding their prickly booty by the tips of their fingers, they peeled off the rind, and devoured the inner part with great satisfaction. In this way they occupied themselves a considerable time, while we were refreshing ourselves with wine (this time it was unmixed) and bread. The vetturino prepared for us some of this marrow of thistle stalks, and assured us that it was wholesome, cooling food; it suited out taste, however, as little of the raw cabbage at Segeste." One wonders if they were prickly-pears, which give "figs of thistles", to use the biblical phrase.

 

It seems the answer is full of mystery and conjecture. I ran across a reference that...." thistle is a very beneficial plant for pollinators....bees, butterflies (etc) all like the nectar of the thistle flowers...."

 

Bees LOVE'em!