Cultural Property Laws in Germany and the US

I received messages on this subject three times today:

• Kunker sent me an e-mail about their next auction. They reminded me that Germany's new Cultural Property Law went into effect on August 6th 2016. They said I could bid on anything in the auction, but export papers may take up to four weeks. For me this is not a deal killer, but is a bit frustrating.
• I purchased a coin from Austria. They mentioned that shipment to the US would be delayed by two weeks to obtain export papers.
• I received an email from the ACCG requesting input on an extension of the MOU between the US and Cyprus. The agreement would limit coins up to late Roman times.

The ACCG is asking ancient coin collectors to go here ( https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...g-of-the-cultural-property-advisory-committee ) to read about the agreement and make comments.
I hope all of this group sends their opinion to the committee. I wanted to say that ancient coins should not stay in the ground until they rot or an archaeologist uses them to date a dig, but did not.
To make this a coin post, below is a coin that spent 3 - 4 months waiting for export papers.



Post your coins that are subject to import restrictions by:
Italy
Greece
Germany
Cyprus
Israel
.......

 

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Do you mean export restrictions?

 

I agree rrdenarius they are harsh new laws they are bringing in, I was a signatory to the petition to prevent them becoming law and believe though not as bad as first thought they will still be frustrating for a lot of collectors. As it turned out I could be frustrated as I just bought a coin at auction and was told up to four weeks for that reason you mentioned, I will wait and see if it takes longer than that I will reconsider buying from that part of the world. This is the Sicily coin I won 420BC-406BC.

 

I am more wondering if I would sell you a coin, send it to the USA, with customs slip, 2 coins more than 100 years old, what than? stopped? no export document? or stopped at import USA...sorry not acceptable...or just goes trough? to final destination..............probably the last...

 

Guess it's a matter of perspective. If Germany for example adapts it cultural property law (export), this also affects potential customers in other countries (import). And while I have been following the debate here in Germany, I am "cautiously satisfied" with the result as far as coins are concerned. Collectors here who have precious rare old coins - other coins are not affected anyway - will have documented their collections by now, and it does make sense in my opinion that such pieces are accompanied by pedigrees.

The new act is pretty complex, and in some regards it is vague. §4 for example says that an online portal should be set up that supposedly helps determining whether an item can be exported or not, and what kind of documentation will be required. Don't think that we have this portal site yet, and I am sure that lawsuits will follow.

Now for the discussion in the US comments about how this, quote, "brings back bad memories of Germany's totalitarian past", may be helpful. Playing with such stereotypes is always easier especially since the "audience" of the ACCG is not in Germany. But, to pick a famous recent example, Künker certainly knew why they brought the former Preussag Collection from DE to the UK before the new Cultural Property Act became effective. MDM paid almost a million euro in order to have the "top" piece back in this country ...

Christian

 

The way the law is written makes it hard to understand exactly what does and does not fall under it. For example, coins of the Roman Republic colonies and coins of the Greek cities of Italy fall under it, so for instance, this one from Panormos I would interpret as restricted:


Where it gets tricky is their wording of struck bronze coins pre-211 BC. I assume they mean pre-denarius(though the date of the introduction is generally taken to be somewhere between 214-211 BC) but what about those series roughly contemporary with the introduction of the denarius? If I interpret the hoard evidence to place them a few years forward are they suddenly no longer restricted?


I have yet to personally have a coin purchase slowed down by import restrictions only because I've purchased them from US dealers and auction houses. I have been forced to pass on a few nice aes grave and quadrigati for this reason recently however.

 

That's a good question, Cyrrhus. How will this new law affect private sales?

How will it affect eBay sellers in Germany? I just randomly checked a couple of German eBay sellers and there is no notice of any change, extra fees, or restrictions for US buyers.

I also checked a couple of German sellers on vCoins and they also have no notice of policy change or impediments to US customers. Perhaps they just haven't updated their stores.

I have many coins which were or would be affected by such laws.

My favorite coin required special license to export from Italy to me (early 2014). The auction house handled it. It did cause a delay but it wasn't terribly long. Some auction houses are so lax in getting coins in the mail that the time to receipt wasn't much longer some of those.

When this Agathokles tetradrachm arrived there was a bunch of export paperwork but I don't see how any of it proved the point required (how long out of the ground). I was just happy it made it through!


SICILY, Syracuse. Agathokles (317-289 BCE)
struck 310-305 BCE
AR tetradrachm, 17.40 g, 24 mm
Obv: head of the nymph Arethusa left, wearing grain wreath, earring and necklace; around, three dolphins; under, monogram (NK?)
Rev: ΣYPAKOΣIΩN, fast chariot charioteer leads to left, holding reins and kentron; above, triskeles; in exergue, monogram
Ref: Ierardi 12 (O2-R8); SNG Copenhagen 573 var., SNG ANS 637

 

I one's almost( but was short in money) bought a few nice silver from the South of Italy, from a Italian dealer, whom was only allowed to sell them to a address in Italy...I though my Italian friends buy them and sent them to me later..how can they check this...never..crazy laws.
Indeed companies should follow rules, but private people can escape I think.
But when you want to sell the companies should ask you, what is the origin of this coin? no papers sorry not acceptable. So this can cause problems, I have many invoices from German coin sellers, I will keep them very closely, it proof bought before the new law.

 

As I wrote, if you have expensive rare coins that you may sell at some point, a proof of purchase makes sense. In Germany the current "threshold" is €2,500 per piece, I think. Also, the law differentiates between "archeologically relevant" objects and mass objects. The Nebra Sky Disk for example would be in the former category, most coins would be in the latter. With coins that have been in a collection for a long time, a collector will hopefully have done what I mentioned - document (with photos and witnesses) that a precious piece was part of the collection before the law became effective. Expensive coins bought afterwards should indeed come with some kind of certificate here.

In my previous post I wrote that this portal site may not be there yet. I was partly wrong - it is accessible now http://www.kulturgutschutz-deutschland.de/ but much relevant info especially from other EU member states will still have to be added. The federal government also provided a brief compilation (PDF, German) of cultural property regulations across the European Union, as a first rough guideline.

Christian

 

From the Kunker email:
"The shipping of your lot numbers acquired in the auction will, in most cases, take place promptly after the auction as usual in the Künker sales. Only for the shipping of very high-priced objects will we require, due to the new legislation, an export license from the responsible authority. The following criteria establish the sale amounts, beginning with which such approval is required:

• Shipping to an EU nation (outside of Germany): beginning with a hammer price of 100,000 euros
• Shipping to another non-EU country (e.g., USA): beginning with a hammer price of 50,000 euros"

If that is the case, I need not worry.

 

Like everything governments do, this is just the beginning IMO. These laws will never get smaller in scope, only expand. Germany is a very powerful political force in Europe and I would expect the rest of the flock to follow their lead eventually or the bright minds at the EU to adopt it centrally. It's very depressing to me. There is hope that Britain, which has the most rational antiquities scheme of all of them and has now rejected the EU, will remain a place of personal collecting freedom as Europe continues it's path toward darkness. I think German auction companies are currently rethinking where they are located, with the possibility of moving to Switzerland or possibly London. Not that the US is any banquet of personal freedoms anymore when it comes to collecting ancient coins. We've seen the US government continue to enact new MOU's and restrictions that are more restrictive than the source countries in complete disregard to the impact on American citizens.

In the latest round of European auctions, I have several coins that I'm researching for provenances prior to 2011. If I can't find any, I can't bid. A prime example is this coin in Kunker listed as being minted in Patras - modern day Greece. To my understanding, nobody knows exactly where Antony Legionary issues were minted and in all likelihood they were minted in lots of places throughout Asia minor. But, since Kunker is placing this coin in Greece I can't buy it in America. Sucks.

 

Seeing these restrictions multiply makes me hesitant to sell my "excess" coins or coins I current own which are of lesser interest to me at the moment. If acquiring coins becomes more difficult in the future, I may regret selling now.

 

Another question in my mind is whether a coin currently in the US (or any other country where it could not have been found) should be exported to Germany or any other country that might not allow it to be returned should the buyer decide not to keep it. Documenting provenance of $50,000 coins is a small added expense but no one has paperwork on the coins they bought from a $5 junk box fifty years ago so a similar requirement on $50 coins should end trade in the material many of us collect.

 

I would personally not sell to anyone outside the US or Canada, as the coin might never be able to return to the US, and I feel like I would be depriving future US collectors the chance to own a piece of history (I have to think of that as I'm just a custodian of these old coins that were here long before and will be here long after I'm dead). Likewise, if I can get a coin from overseas, I want to keep it in North America if I were to sell it as who knows whether future US collectors will have a chance at owning one like it if I were to ship it out of this continent.

 

I guess the new German law is still confusing (at least for me). I had thought there was an amendment attached to if for coins, value to zero, but still requiring a permit. Anyone know about that? All I know is that my last German auction wins are still held up after about a month now.

 

My concern is my collecting focus: Italia issues, pre-denarii issues, Aes Grave, etc.

 

I'm confused as well. The Kunker email I quoted above led me to believe that this new German law only applied to high dollar coins. Apparently that is not the case?

 

As I understand it modern coins are exempt, but ancient coins are also considered an antiquity, which subjects them to the process.

 

Hmmm, I wonder why that was not mentioned in their email?

 

I understood it the way Kunker's email indicates. At least that's how it was written up on CoinsWeekly.

Trade will slow down but not stop. I buy ancient coins from Italian dealers all the time and it just adds a few weeks.

I'm still in disagreement with the MOU's, of course.