PARTHIAN - Kings of Elymais

I recently purchased a couple of 'Parthian' coins, and, because of my (very) limited knowledge of these coins, I am not sure if these are Kamnaskires or Orodes (I, II III, or ?) I find that this confusion is shared by a number of 'holders' of these coins, as they 'differ' on whose likeness is on which coin.
Also, the reverse is said to depict 'dashes', BUT in my research, I have found a reference to the depiction being the 'Hanging Gardens', (Seven wonders of the World), said to have been located in Babylon but never found. Some say that the area of Elymais and the esteem that the women of Elymais were held in, makes it more likely that the 'Hanging Gardens' were located there, and the 'dashes' are (in fact) a representation of those 'Hanging Gardens. (Who am I to argue.)
I know that some do have an interest in these coins and I would be grateful for any help in attributing these, or indeed, of any more knowledge that you might 'toss' our way.. (Thank-you in advance.)

'Kamnaskires' 147 B.c. - 120 A.D.


Orodes 25 B.C. - 124 A.D.

 

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I've been wanting to add some of these coins but haven't actually added any.

 

Same here. They're rather intriguing coins, aren't they?

 

It is said that (on the obverse) we have the image of the ruler with a 'dot' in a crescent above an anchor.

Here is a reference to the 'Hanging Gardens' being in Elymais.

 

Hmm, possibility of the Hanging Gardens being in Elymais seems like wishful thinking but it makes for a fun story.

 

My understanding is Elymais was home to the magi which makes it even more interesting.

 

Wasn't 'Elymais' Jethro's sister in "The Beverly Hillbillies"? (Now I am showing my age.)
No, really, I hadn't heard of Elymais until I started researching these coins, now I have to go look up the Magi? Oh! Sixth century B.C. A bit before this time?

 

I have to ask Topcat, where did you buy this coin? Wasn't eBay was it?

 

There is a good book on Elymaean coinage by van't Haaff for about $75. Last I heard, the dealer I got mine from was still selling groups of 3 to 30 mixed types which suggests a recent hoard and explains why we see so many. It would be easier to match up slightly better or less encrusted coins but I'll guess this last is an Orodes II. The book separates out several rulers of each name. I need to sit down with the book and become more comfortable with the distinctions.
Kamnaskires-Orodes III

Phraates

Orodes I (Artemis bust reverse)

Orodes IV (Artemis)


Of course my favorite one is my only tetradrachm. These vary greatly in the workmanship on the reverse.
Kamnaskires VI?

 

Thanks, Doug.
I note that you call your first example "Kamnaskires-Orodes III".
Weren't they two different rulers?
Would you suggest this coin to be the same as the first example of mine?
The second being Orodes II?

 

Elymaeans are challenging since their history is murky and attributions are a moving target based on whose research you're using.

TC, using van't Haaff's book, which is the latest on this series, your first coin is Kamnaskires-Orodes (that's one fellow, btw), van't Haaff 12.3.1-2A1. Second coin is Orodes II, van't Haaff 13.3.2-2A.

For some context, here's a short introductory article about collecting Elymais...I wrote it in July: http://www.coincommunity.com/pdf/An-Introduction-to-Collecting-Coins-from-Elymais.pdf

I love the series despite the challenges. For anyone who may be interested, my Elymaeans are here: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=3637

 

Very interesting thread!!

One of the two Parthian coins I own ----- a 16 mm AE drachm of Orodes III:

 

You are right. My use of Kamnaskires-Orodes III means that coin entered my catalog when the book I owned on the subject was de Morgan (1976) and that was the name he used for the king following Orodes II and before Orodes IV. van't Haaff (2007) uses the name without the numeral for the king after Orodes I and before Orodes II. I am in no position to judge the difference between truth and theory. We collectors usually buy a book and follow it for our attibutions. I need to go back and rework the coins I had before vH came out. I have 18 coins of Elymais including a group of ten I bought unidentified other than 'all different'. More recent lots I have seen are listed as 'assorted' so I assume than means there are some types in greater supply than others. All these are from the later periods of Elymaean history or 'Arsacid' dynasty. vH ends his book with 228 AD or roughly when the Sasanians ended the Parthians and many minor kingdoms. There are a few kings listed as uncertain, Prince B and unientified but I would not bet the farm on any of the identifications lasting through the next book on the subject by the next expert to publish.

I do suspect that Elymaean and Parthian coins would be more popular if more were identifiable as certainly as those of lands where the king always spelled out his name. This is not a period of history with tons of evidence so we do the best we can.

 

if you haven't, check out Bob L. article on elymian coins linked abouve, very good intro to these guys and their coins.

cool coins TC! i just posted on of mine on bob's thread yesterday!

 

I had my heart set on getting a front facing tetradrachm from Elymais ever since I started collecting coins and saw a picture of one on the back of Berman's catalog Coins and Paper Money (I forget which edition). I finally nabbed this one a couple of years ago:



Elymaian Kingdom: Kamnaskires-Orodes. Early-mid 2nd century A.D. Æ tetradrachm (29 mm, 15.18 g). Bearded facing bust, wearing diadem with tuft of hair on top of head; in right field, star-in-crescent above anchor; small pellet between anchor and hair / Dashes. Van’t Haaff 12.1, subtype 1-3D; Alram 481. Brown patina. Very fine.

 

Sorry. I have been asleep for a while. (It has just gone 5:30 a.m. and I am back on deck.)

@Bob L. Thanks for coming in Bob. Great to hear from you, again. (Long time no see.) I appreciate the help here, and I will certainly check those references in your post (after my first cup of tea).

@Mikey Zee (Very) nice coin, Mikey, esp. with the anchor on the reverse. I can't say that I have seen that before.

@dougsmit Very interesting piece, Doug. (As always) I am amazed by your depth of knowledge. Thanks.

@Nicholas Molinari Very nice coin Nicholas. I love the clear 'relief' on the obverse.

 

While there very likely was some link between the kings of Elymais and Parthia (vassals or even some being the same person in different aspects of his rule (like King James of England and Scotland?), we might be better off reserving the term Parthian for the coins of the larger empire and use Elymais for the local issues shown in this thread. Early Elymaean coins were more like Seleucids and some of the Parthian tetradrachms but the mainstream Parthian bronzes were nothing like these bronzes of the later days of Elymais. If you go to sell 'Parthian' AE, buyers will be expecting the somewhat more scarce and expensive pieces of scrap metal (some are really horrid) and not these very distinct Elymaean coins. I stopped buying Parthian bronzes when the became fashionable and expensive. Elymaean is still cheap for the most part.

From my Parthian page:

 

@Bob L.
I have just concluded reading your work (my cup of tea has gone cold). You are to be congratulated on putting that together and I recommend it to anyone who hasn't read it, yet.
I have yet to have a look at those links you have included as references, but that will have to take place another day.
Thank-you, Bob. Great work.

@dougsmit Point taken, Doug. I, too found the 'Parthian' road a little expensive, and I shall (in future) refer to my coins as 'Coins of Elymais'.

 

I just opened up your article - wow! Thanks for posting this. I just sort of skimmed it a bit because I'm supposed to be doing something productive right now but I can't wait to tear into it later. Thanks again.

 

read it and thoroughly enjoyed it.... put on traditional persian music whilst reading to get in the mood....