Why do TPGs sometimes grade proof-only issues as MS?

Beautiful coin, but this ^ is going to trump this every single day:

 

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As far as I know, no mention of proofs exist in the mint records.

As usual, confusion reigns! I found the quote above was posted in reference to an Austrian coin and NOT the coin in the OP.

Also, we all know about the accuracy (??) of "Mint records" here and around the world lacking all the "special" coins (Proofs, Branch Mint Proofs, Specimen Strikes, Patterns, Restrikes, Fantasies, Mules, etc.) that were never made.

 

Yes, of course it was. I was responding to Jaelus' post.... hence my quoting him. I'm confused by what your point here is?

 

Mint Records and what they "trump."

 

Yes exactly my point. They go by mint records, but these are very unreliable, especially as special strikes were frequently unrecorded. For my Austrian example, I realize the mint records don't list proofs, but I can't believe that in the first year for the type they didn't strike a few proofs or at least proof-like specimens.

 

Doesn't a mint have to make a business strike coin in order to make a proof coin? The mint's main purpose is to make coinage for commerce. So if the mint only makes one coin of a design the automatic fallback is the coin is Mint State? No matter the appearance of the coin. As a qualifier to even be considered a proof coin a mint must also make a business strike coin?

 

I'm taking an educated guess because for Hungarian coinage from this time period, there typically were proofs struck for most types. Im not as well versed in Austrian coinage, but the Austrian and Hungarian mints were managed by the same government entity, so it seems likely that proofs were also struck for the Austrian types. That being the case, a first year for a type is also more likely to have a proof strike.

 

So, I finally get it. In the absence of Mint records and based on your hunch that the country should have produced Proofs for these coins and the opinion of dealers because the coins look like Proofs (THAT'S WHAT PL SIGNIFIES) you decided to post that NGC made an error**.

**Guess you are correct. NGC should have put PL on the label in the first place!

 

The coin in question is not a "mint sport" it is one of the normal thickness examples, as evidenced by the denomination still being present.

 

NGC's own price guide only prices it in proof as well:

https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide...rams-km-952-1339-ah1380-cuid-32445-duid-94952

 

Isn't NGC's world "price guide" simply taken from some version of the Krause Catalog? If so, that's already been discussed, and they may be using an older version that didn't list proofs.

Edit: Found this link to a PF graded 8 gram, so I assume it was graded after Krause corrected their info:

https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/2806904-011/

 

Thanks for the clarification. Finally, we get somewhere. Too bad you were not around here sooner.

 

Mint records are notoriously inaccurate, even in many cases for business strikes, let alone special strikes. The absence of mint records is not by any means conclusive, and I don't think anyone would even argue that. Also, I realize that PL signifies that the coin looks like a proof, but proofs also look like proofs. Do you think that PL is so cut and dry that no proof has ever been designated as PL, or does PL include both proof-like strikes and inconclusive proofs?

As I said above, this isn't just a hunch of mine. While not conclusive by any means, there is supporting evidence enough to indicate that it's possible that it is a proof. Plus you haven't seen this coin in hand; the pictures do not do it justice. I've seen (and own) many proofs and proof-like strikes of Austro-Hungarian coins from the Franz Joseph period, and the look of this particular coin is more indicative of an actual proof rather than just a proof-like strike.

I've seen a double standard with NGC on these. PL wasn't even designated on world coins until relatively recently, and now they are frequently overlooked. Submit a US coin that is a proof or proof-like and you will get the designation because they are much more familiar with those series. For world coins you have to resubmit or put notes on the submissions and call them while the coins are being graded, just to get a PL on an obviously PL coin.

 

Thin Proof? I can just see it now........

"Hey guys! I just got my TP in the mail today. I've had to wait 8 weeks for it."

Geez! What have you been using until now?

Chris