Most Expensive British Coin

I don't think its is that simple when comparing it directly to the SP dollar which he had. That dollar was from the very early years of the US where as England had obviously been around for a long long time before this coin. TDN who bought it and posts on the CU forums at one point laid out a case that that dollar may have been the first dollar every struck by the country, while it certainly wasn't a case where everyone just said yes I agree the fact that it is plausible does add to the story of that coin. That coin is also not a proof making it's survival in that condition even more extraordinary. I do think it is a bit of apples and oranges comparison between the two but those are just some of the distinguishing factors that would support the higher SP price over it just being two different buyer types.

Another to consider is quite simply the buyer base. The US buying base is just so much larger overall than the British one just from a population standpoint that I would expect prices to be higher.

I agree some series are "overpriced" in terms of rarity, but really that is no different than anything else in life. When a lot of people want something prices go up, when they don't they go down.

 

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In comparing the merits of the SP-66 1794 dollar and this coin, I personally think its attributes are somewhat better, but not much better because I don't hold the same inflated opinions of the 1794 dollar that most US collectors do. It is an apples to oranges comparison but whatever the merits, still disproportionate to the price difference which I don't think is going to change much if at all.

The US buyer base is much larger, but I would still attribute it to the outsized practice of "investment" buying which exists here and much less to not at all elsewhere. Due to outsized "investment" buying, it includes a much higher proportion of affluent buyers who are also willing to spend a lot more. To my knowledge, US coins have always been a lot more expensive (going by old issues of the Red Book and the limited data I have for other coinage) but the gap increased noticeably starting in the 1970's, though it's been closing more recently.

The biggest discrepancy isn't with elite and ultra elite coinage (such as these two) but between US coins which are actually common to incredibly common versus much scarcer world and ancient coins. The former sell for much higher premiums almost exclusively due to "investment" buying because otherwise, I don't see how anyone could rationalize paying such exorbitant prices for coins whose actual merits are so undistinguished.

 

Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion but I would take the merits of the SP coin any-day over the proof.

Ancient coins are really just an animal of their own right. They are by far the hardest for collectors to get into imo given the vast different series and designs and even the TPGs don't stand behind their authentication of them very much if at all which really gives collectors no safety net starting out.

With world coins the "affluent" countries aren't exactly cheap to find nice ones and the nicer ones can often be pretty expensive. The poorer countries without the demand at home for them are certainly cheap by comparison which in my opinion is largely due to a weak to nonexistent home market for them. The stronger the home market the more expensive they generally are and a lot of the "affluent" countries aren't that far out of line with US pricing once you adjust for population differences. I certainly don't know pricing well enough to make any comparisons with Chinese or Russian coins (not even actually sure what the home demand for Russian coins is like in all honesty) but China may end up being the best comparison in a couple years.

There certainly is some investment buying at the upper end of the US scale, but 99 percent of collectors will never play at that level and I have never seen a 100 dollar coin become a 200 dollar one because the 5 mil top pop just sold for 6 mil. Only a small segment of the US market is really impacted by investment buying, the majority of coins at their prices today just aren't worth the time of day for big money to "invest" in and hope they make a 100 bucks off it in 5 years or so. If anything US dealers are just more aggressive and better at marketing but with the TPGs having been established here for quite a while it has also given people a lot more options when it comes time to sell which ultimately gives buyers more confidence which can lead to price increases. But again you still have to account for population differences when making comparisons as the home market is the real driver of what a coins perceived value should be.

I would disagree here, I assume you are largely referring to Morgans where from a rarity standpoint most of their prices are completely out of wack yet I don't think any buyers of those (monster toners excluded) would consider them an investment. Their prices on a lot of them have actually come down since the craze in the 80s where there was actually that investment kick, but now there are just enough people willing to pay the prices that they stay there.

 

In this instance, I agreed with you that the 1794 SP is a better coin given the merits of both.

I'm not trying to single this coin out but since it came up, its as good as any. Generically, 1794 dollars are inflated even versus other US early federal coinage. With 125+ known, the coin is moderately scarce but not actually rare.

For this coin, it is also inflated versus other equal quality early federal coinage where I see no possibility that the coin is anywhere near more desirable compared to the price difference. Recently, both the 1796 "No Pole" cent MS-67 and the single SP-66 DBSE half sold. The first for about $1MM and the second I believe for $1.5MM. Is the 1794 really 10 and six times better? If the answer is "yes", my answer is "not a chance".

I am aware of the story line of this coin, just as I am of others such as the original 1804 dollar, 1933 Saint and 1913 LHN. I consider every single one of them exaggerated in supposedly supporting the prices.

My expectation is that I were to have this discussion with each board member here, most of them would find a large number of US coins (at least the 29 I previously identified as "ultra-elite") which are supposedly better than the best coins from elsewhere. To many it would be the 1794 dollar but there will also be many others.

What I am telling you is that this is a US centric view which doesn't make any sense because there is no reason to believe that these coins are remotely as desirable as most US collectors believe them to be.

 

Compared to the US, there is no correlation between the prices of the more expensive coins and the level of affluence, even in the affluent countries. And substantially, the only reason why the ones which are expensive now is because US buyers have inflated the prices, not anyone else.

Part of my whole point is that there is almost no "investment" buying locally in most markets. Its apparent in the countries I listed which is why I named them but not anywhere else.

I have looked at the Heritage archives on numerous occasions and I believe it is representative of the prices and price level for most markets because of the sales volume. Outside of the countries I listed, the others disproportionately have no sales above $50,000 and many times only around $20,000 for their best coins. This includes countries such as the Netherlands and France which have long and distinguished traditions of collecting.

 

I wasn't referring to toned Morgans but to a coin such as a "grade rarity" or higher grade 1893-S. This coin is very common, except in grade. I know why it sells for its price but the claim I made about coins such as this one is entirely correct. Its merits are totally disproportionate to its price and this applies to many other US coins.

 

I believe your analysis is incorrect from two aspects. These are: 1) Regarding the historical aspects of coins and: 2) The valuation of coins.

You wrote: “The supposed “history” only exists in the minds of collectors who imagined it.” Well, the history exists independently of the collectors, and hopefully it was more factually based than just “imagined”. Perhaps what you’re trying to say is the linkage between the historical event and the coin is imagined in the minds of collectors?

Let’s look for more “actual causality” in our historical things. One tangible item is the pre dreadnought era battleship USS Oregon (1898, displ: 10,288 tons). She made a historic journey from the Pacific to the Atlantic to fight in the Spanish American War. She was also a classic model of early iron ship design and was THE 1st Warship of the Modern US Navy. Unparalleled historical importance. Unfortunately she was scrapped in 1956 as it was decided the scrap value of the ship exceeded her historical value.

I’ve never heard of any private collectors of pre-dreadnought iron warships. Had I only known I could’ve purchased her & kept her someplace (only 10,300 tons). Of course I wasn’t born yet in 1956.

What else is there since you don’t wish to compare coins to artwork; which can be very highly valued? Some people collect WW-I and WW-II tanks & armored vehicles. Also vintage WW-II aircraft. Old cars are popular here in Sao Paulo, Brazil, however, are expensive & difficult to keep.

Firearms. I’ve always thought it’d be neat to own a nice US Civil War revolver: a Colt model of 1860 or 1851. If you only spend a few thousand or so, you’ll get a fused piece of iron clump found in the ground after a couple of decades, chemically cleaned and completely nonfunctional. For nice things (still not recommended to be fireable) you may need to be in the 10’s of thousands of $.

1) On coins & history. Two “historical” examples which I acquired somewhat inexpensively in 2011 and 2015. This is a matched pair in that shown are coins of both sides of an important conflict which shaped the Argentine Nation.


Argentina, silver 8S, possibly an 8 soles or a die trial for a gold 8 escudos, Province of LaRioja, 1836


Argentina, silver 8 Reals, “Republica Argentina”, Rebel forces, 1840



The 1st coin was issued by General Manual Rosas, known as “tyrant of the Argentines”. He became Governor of the Province of Buenos Aires in 1829 after a war between the Argentine provinces. He was a complete dictator during that period. While coins with his name were issued throughout, portrait coins were only struck in 1836 and then in 1842 with a more mature portrait.

All of his large size (crown sized 8 Reals or 8 escudos) portrait coins, are rare. There are only an estimated 5 or so of the silver pieces with perhaps the same number or less in gold. In 1842 there perhaps 12 known gold 8 escudos ???, 1 reported uniface silver 8 Reals (or Soles*), and a larger quantity of silver 2 reals & gold 2 escudos which saw limited circulation. I have a “cheap” AU 2 Reals (prob AU 50 or 53) but have never seen or heard of a better one.

On the 2nd coin: there was a serious rebellion of to break free of his (Rosas’) rule and establish an Argentine Republic. These people were called the “Unitarians” and struck “crowns”: silver 8 Reals and gold 8 escudos only in 1840. This was the first coin mentioning “Republic Argentina” & the silver ones are known as “Rebel Pesos”. After the Unitarian defeat in 1841, The dictator Rosas ordered all their coins destroyed. The silver 8 Reals are particularly rare with only about 12 specimens surviving in all grades.

The 1836 I bought when the Porfino collection was auctioned by Stacks and the 1840 is from a Jim Elmen (World Wide Coins) auction & is his photograph. I’m working with a guy on this site to buy good coin photography stuff so I can finally decent good photos. Neither of these two coins cost $10,000 and my 2 Reals of Rosas was just a couple of hundred.


2. On coin Valuations. I don’t know if these things will increase in value or not. I’m in good health, and don’t plan to sell them even in the distant future. Are they undervalued regarding other items thought of as historical?

By “undervalued” I feel that the value should increase at some point. Right now things are going very well for society and one well known academic even published a book: “The Better Angels of Our Nature” showing a systemic decrease in violence in our society over the past 30 years and predicting greatly improved social conditions and harmony going forward. I tend to disagree with this thesis.

While I & many on this site have hardcopy book collections, a lot of man’s knowledge is becoming stored digitally. With even a small disruption in power or a bit of damage, these archives become completely unreadable. Thus I see coins as relatively durable, a way of preserving knowledge or a record of events. They can also represent portable transferable wealth, transferred to one’s heirs, and are difficult to tax. Of course there are opposing factors contributing to a decline in the values of historical coins. I’ll leave it to you to list those.


*Reals & Soles. After the Wars of Independence many of the new nations kept the Spanish Colonial denominations but substituted "Soles" for "Reals".

 

WOW...what have I walked into...all I can get out of this is a new member in the morning...lost member in the evening.....LOL. Great job though following the paper trail on the OP and great responses...but overall I feel we lose a lot more members then we gain. JHMO.

P.S. I don't have any proof; but by the attacks I saw this forum can kill...I mean kill. Once again...just my HO.

 

Here's my most expensive coin... $225. Mine's older than yours, so beat that. Oh, your King reigned for a hiccup? No one cares. Yours is a "proof", not intended for circulation. Mine did circulate. 700 years ago. So am I supposed to be impressed by your coin? Price paid means nothing. Mine is not for sale until I die.

 

Hi to all who've contributed to this post. I don't mean to stir up a hornets nest or have to leave this chat forum (like Jordan ) as I think it has many positives but I also think that maybe Jordan Lott got a bit of a raw deal with his post. I am obviously not as wealthy as he or his family but we all collect various things for different reasons. Some for fun, some as a hobby, some for profit and some for a combination of all of these.

Many if not all of us take a lot of pride and satisfaction when others admire/appreciate what we have/own. That is why we post our coins here isn't it??? To share and receive likes!!! Imagine if everyone gave the other guy a thumbs-down every time someone posted a coin, this forum would shut down in 2 hours.

If I see a nice car or coin I appreciate it even if it is wayyyyyy beyond my budget. Moreover, many less rare US coins have sold for many many times what Jordan paid for essentially a one-off. Firstly I think he got it for a very reasonable price and secondly I hope it proves to be a great investment for him. I do think that this sovereign is a unique piece and in the medium to long term it will pay him a handsome profit.

I do accept he bent the forum rules a bit and needed to be reminded of that but would hate to think that I needed to be careful about the next coin I post in case its value upsets others.

Some months ago I was fortunate enough to buy one of only two specimen coins (the other is in a museum), albeit for a fraction of what Jordan paid for his coin. However, I'm hoping that my purchase will appreciate over time as I'm sure all of us do. Nobody buys any collection hoping it will be worthless in 5, 10 or 50 years.

Having said that, I would have preferred if Jordan had made the post more personal and engaging by posting real photos of his coin with him holding it or something similar and not come off as if he was bragging, but I think with hindsight even he regrets his initial post.

If he has some rare and nice coins, I certainly would like to see them as any true enthusiast would. If however, he is a fraud, then I like everyone else would shun him. So how about giving him one more chance and asking him to post his real coins and not use this forum as an advertisement platform.

Just my two cents' worth.

 

Hi
In hindsight I really screwed up first post
I've learnt my lesson.
I've spent time since visiting lots of forums and blogs and now understand for whom and how they're run
Jordan

 

Congratulations to SPINK Coin dealers of London 350 years old !!!
Was invited to thier 350 th anniversary banquet last week
Everyone dressed in period costume.
The banquet was original 1666 food and finished with a golden roast pheasant i.e. With gold leaf on the breast.
Hope they continue as a great coin house for another 350 years
Well done to all

 

Hi
Great looking coin.
What's its story
Who would have used it.
What has it bought?
Could be a documentary story
.???

 

Its never too late to make amends. But first you need to prove to everyone here that you are who you say you are. Post some coins, participate and make friends. Many members here are VERY knowledgeable and you could learn a lot from them. And many have fabulous collections too!!!

 

VERY knowledgeable is an understatement. Sure, there are the standard grouches, and cynics here who love to argue, just for the sake of it, but I've found this site to be overall friendly, encouraging, and Johnny-on-the-spot for advice and research. There seem to be plenty of people here who have forgotten more information about coins than I could ever hope to acquire. Good luck, and stick around!!!
P.S.: your coin is absolutely amazing!!!!

 

Hi
Thanks for the nice comments
What i have personally fallen for is hammered gold coins and silver...
There're was a beautiful Hernry IV quarter noble at Baldwins auction yesterday.
Any coins up to milled.
This is my personal collection
Cheers