3rd party Slabs. Keep them or crack em open ?

The new PCGS ones are supposed to be water proof, I don't believe they have any guarantee on that though.

 

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Shows are one way, another would be if it was mailed the first day. Obviously the number of people who could actually accomplish this is rather limited due to the limited locations you would have the ability to do this.

 

You can assume the populations are inflated for any grades just below a significant jump in value. There is some inflation from cross over submissions as well when the labels aren't sent back in to be removed. There are plenty of coins that are accounted for in both the PCGS and NGC populations from the label never being returned.

 

To the best of my knowledge, to cross over you have to send PCGS the coin IN the NGC slab and Vice-versa.

[There are plenty of coins that are accounted for in both the PCGS and NGC populations from the label never being returned.]

If the label is not returned, how would the grading service know it's a crack out? It's widely accepted that population reports are off, because people don't want the TPG services to know they are resubmitting the same coin over and over. Grading is an art not a science, depending on who's doing the grading or how they feel that day can effect a coins grade.

 

Yes it has to be in the slab. NGC only takes PCGS cross overs but PCGS will take any companies.

Exactly, it is isn't there fault since they have no way to know but just another reason why a lot of things can seem a lot more common and available then they really are.

 

I'd crack out the coin in the NNC slab and those in details-slabs. No added value. Authenticity? In Europe most coins are sold raw, so we're used to buy/sell raw coins. If he really wants to sell one of those coins later, he can still submit it again and maybe with some luck it comes back with a straight grade.

 

Again, if it's a common coin, I wouldn't send it in, but if it's a rare coin, I'm more interested in it being authenticated, than graded. I have and Athenia/Owl coin that has the right silver content, the right size, and the right weight, but it's an expensive coin and therefore likely to be a target of the Chinese counterfeiters so I'll probably send it in the NGC ancients department.

[I'd crack out the coin in the NNC slab and those in details-slabs.]

There's a lot of grading companies that aren't worth the money to send them to. TV shows are making up companies that sound like the real ones. One of the shows (the auction one) was pushing the gold Mercury dime as a first day grading and the company was NCG (?) guess they figured newbies or people who didn't pay attention would assume it was NGC.

If you look at the beginning of the Grey Sheet, they rate TPG companies: PCGS, NGC, ANACS, ICG, and then everybody else. If you haven't seen this it is definitely worth a look.

 

It's possible that PCGS laser-scans all high-end (and some not-so-high-end) coins submitted for grading to see if they are in their Secure database. They may do this even if the submitter hasn't paid for Secure service. If it's already there, they'll know it's a resubmission and what the previous grade was. If it's not there, it will be for the future.

They're probably generating some very interesting data. It would include coins they've seen before that are coming back as raw coins and coins in various holders. Might also be able to detect coins that have been dipped or toned significantly since last seen. Depending on how they use the data, the resubmit-until-it-goes-up game may seldom work. For example, if a grader sees a code that indicates a coin has been graded six times before, it's just possible they could be a little tougher on it.

Cal

 

It's the secure plus service I think where they scan them. It's a good idea to beat those people. I've cracked open an NNC slab before. I always buy the coin not the slab anyway. As I've mentioned before in Europe we nearly always deal with raw coins but these days it's getting a little harder to buy a coin worth around £200 plus that hasn't been slabbed in my field. I guess a lot of them are counterfeited though so I take it on the chin.

The NNC slab I broke out was a May 1690 gun money 1/2 crown and it had the wrong designation on it. Was meant to be the large type and ended up being the small type. The grading was miles off too it was F at best and they gave it VF 20. I would never use these people.

 

Crack out the details ones only. That's my opinion.

 

I don't think the major TPG Services can really tell if a coin has been submitted before unless it has a distinguishing mark, such as bag marks on a Morgan Dollar or particular different toning that they can identify. I think you're giving them to much credit, they see millions of coins, have different graders working for them, and two graders give their opinion with a third finalizer. Do you really think these people can take the time or actually remember a coin that they may have seen before?

That's why people crack them out, hoping a different set of graders will be in a better mood (Friday not Monday) and increase the grade. They even tried computer grading and that didn't work, I repeat grading is subjective not objective.

How many times have they claimed something has "details" because it looks to good to them or "altered surfaces" because the toning is to good. I just read an issue of Numismatic News were F. Michael Fazzari went over some of the grading errors made by the big three services. Humans make mistakes, sometimes in our favor, sometimes in their favor.

 

I think you can crack out the NNC slab without losing anything. Frankly, for reasons explained by Doug, I don't see the point of buying a slabbed coin, then breaking it out of the slab. The cost of slabbing it, I suspect, has been rolled over and you are paying for it, IMHO.

 

A valid point but I think It does depend on the source. I've bought most of these through eBay, I haven't paid any more than the going Rate (which I monitor religiously) for them a couple come from online auctioneers so undoubtably I've had to factor in some cost. I tend to have to go to these auctioneers for certain coins as they rarely come up locally or on eBay. Yet with some of my raw auction wins I know for a fact they would do better on eBay.

 

I hate slabs, so I vote to crack out.

 

If it's been laser-scanned before and is scanned when it comes in again, graders don't have to remember anything. A tag can be put on the flip or slab stating its prior history at that service.

Cal

 

That's what I thought for the coin to not be recognised you would have to seriously alter the surfaces somehow. But even so I would imagine laser checked there would be "identifiers" certain nicks that are almost invisible to the eye but like a tooth can identify the coin.

 

I don't know that PCGS has released much detail about their laser scanning. My guess it that is a type of confocal scanning of obverse and reverse and perhaps the edge as well. I don't know the resolution they use or whether they use multiple wavelengths. If done with enough resolution, even MS70 coins fresh off the press will produce different images. Changes in surface coloration can be detected, but even with coloration changes, all the nicks, unevenness, striking variation, etc. will make the coin uniquely identifiable. The only thing that can that can defeat it is to put on more dings or wear it down, both of which will lower the grade.

Cal

 

Have you looked at NGC's guarantee for ancient coins? They don't really have one. They do not guarantee authenticity, type, grade, or attribution. Basically they will put it in a holder if they think it is real, but they won't stand behind it at all.

Here is the link to their Ancient coin "Guarantee"

https://www.ngccoin.com/specialty-services/ancient-coins/guarantee.aspx

True but it will only get flagged as a resubmitted coin if it is sent in under the Secure Plus tier again. Any other tier it doesn't get scanned again so it doesn't get compared to the database.

 

I don't know that only coins submitted under the Secure service get scanned. If you pay the $5, you can be sure that it does get scanned. If you don't pay the $5, it may be scanned anyway. For one thing, PCGS has advertised Secure service as a means of recovering stolen coins even if not resubmitted in the original holder. The only way that will work is if all coins of particular type, date, mint, etc. of a reported stolen coin are scanned as they come in. The scanning is probably quite automated and costs them a lot less than $5 to do.

Scanning all coins above a certain value would be to their benefit. Not only will stolen coins be spotted, but certain types of coin doctoring can be detected with it. In addition, they can detect coins sent in for multiple regrades, their pop reports will be more accurate, they can spot coins that have crossed to another service but have now come back to them, etc. They can build a transit database of coins, which is a record of the travels of coins among submitters. Such a database could have all sorts of uses, including targeted advertising, keeping track of grading activities of competitors, and helping law enforcement in certain types of fraud and theft cases.

So why pay the $5 for Secure service when submitting coins? Well, it guarantees that it will be scanned. Say you have a PCGS-graded coin stolen and haven't paid to have it scanned. If you ask them to be on the look-out for it coming back, they'll probably decline even if they have a scan of it in their database. The most they would do is snare it if it comes back in the original holder.

Cal

 

I doubt they're taking the time with the vast majority of coins. Yes they may be scanning everything above a certain value for their own internal database but I seriously doubt they're scanning every $200 half unless someone paid for secure plus.

Interestingly enough they do require more service tiers to be secure plus for World coins than they do for US coins.

Not to mention you get the TrueView with it now which costs 10 a coin so it is a cheaper alternative to get imagining as well.