Reproductions or Counterfeits ?

Regardless of how you treat it semantically, a facsimile of a US coin issue must be marked by law. Law trumps semantics.

 

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Yup, looks like the only way for them to save face and get a return on what they outlaid, would be to get a punch set and stamp copy into it.
Heck stamp the back so the front of item in the bezel looks real until it is turned over.
Had he done something like that in the first place he would not be dealing with the issues at hand now.

 

It is against eBay's rules if nothing else;

Policy overview
To help ensure buyer confidence in the stamps, currency, and coins listed on eBay, we've established a set of guidelines for our sellers to follow. These guidelines cover what can and can't be sold on eBay, and the requirements for certain listings.

• Most countries strictly prohibit the sale of counterfeit currency and stamps as well as equipment designed to make them. These types of items can't be listed on eBay.
  
  
• We allow listings for replica stamps and paper money as long asyou follow the policy guidelines.
  
  
• Replica coins aren't allowed. All other stamps, coins, and paper money must be accurately described.
  
  
• Replica, plated, or clad bullion isn't allowed.

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/currstamps.html

 

The Hobby Protection Act, passed by Congress in 1973, covers imitation political items (e.g., buttons, posters, stickers, etc.), as well as imitation numismatic items (e.g., various coins, tokens, paper money, commemorative medals) that are required to be marked with certain identifying information in an effort to flag them as imitations. The FTC’s Rule establishes the size of the required disclosures, their location, and the manner in which items may be marked.

Go to http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...rgn=div5&view=text&node=16:1.0.1.3.28&idno=16 for the complete Hobby Protection Act.

 

The fact that the Seller did not include the word "Counterfeit" or "Reproduction" in the title of the listing, leads me to feel as though he/she is trying to deceive. I realize it's in the description. I think it should also be in the listing title.

As far as ebay policies to protect buyers, they are laughable. Ebay protects ebay. Sellers make money for ebay, and they are perfectly willing to turn a "blind eye" when it is to their benefit. Jack

 

He left it out of the title because the ebay algorithm bots would've immediately removed it with such words in the title

 

Perhaps he should've just called it a "fantasy" piece....

 

In another thread I posted several "counterfeit" coins that various club members have accumulated over the years, We use them for educational purposes, to show new members what a fake coin looks like, feels like, & always try a magnet on a coin that you have doubts about. NUMBER 1 rule is if it's rare or expensive, always buy it certified!

 

As others have said:

1) Yes, it's illegal to sell a reproduction coin in the US that isn't stamped "copy".

2) Yes, it's against eBay policy to list a reproduction coin, even if it IS stamped "copy".

3) Yes, many, many such fakes are listed on eBay, and many (most?) of them sell without interference. eBay gutted their coin-watching group years ago, with predictable results.

Report the auction, and eBay could take it down -- but they probably won't.

 

Just a quick note, no more Bill the Cat Avatar, my grandson drew a picture of me and I thought I'd use that instead.

According to the Hobby Protection Act, the coin has to have "Copy" stamped into the coin (incuse) in a certain type style and a particular size. If it is advertised it has to have Copy clearly shown in it's description. This is Federal Law and it considered a Felony to not follow the Act. See my post above if you want to see the actual Act.

The only time eBay gets involved is if you trip a preset set of words or feedback that is less than four stars. I recently bought a Redfield Coin (in the Redfield Red Holder on eBay. I got it for a good price and when it arrived I found out why. There was a small crack/chip in the holder. I wanted the coin, so I kept it, but sent the seller a message than he/she should have listed that defect in their listing. They did not respond, so in the feedback, I still gave them a positive, but only 3 stars for description. I immediately got a message from eBay (form letter) that if something was not right with the transaction, they would be glad to get involved. I declined their help, but there's an example, give an honest feedback of three or less stars and it sets off an automatic response from eBay.

The Seller never did contact me, and they never gave me feedback even though I paid the day I won the auction.

 

Mont - I much prefer your grandson's artwork! Your post clearly explains the ebay process however that resolution only occurs AFTER the item is sold (in the Buyer's feedback). Ebay is actually very good about getting refunds, returns, replacements. What they aren't good about is removing deceitful items with less than honest descriptions.

I understand that in your example, you didn't find the defect until you had the coin (holder) in hand. What makes me crazy is ebay's (A) unwillingness to police their own listings, and (B) failure to remove deceitful listings even when they are reported. It also irks me that a Seller (ex: pinkhaloangel) can have 73 less than positive feedback ratings, and a history of bait and switch business practices (just look through their negative reports), and ebay DEFENDS them. Why? Because they've sold 43,000+ items, and ebay makes lots of money from their listings. They even give someone like that a coveted title "Top Rated Plus." That makes ebay a partner in cheating their Buyers. Jack

 

Yeah I was impressed, he's only 8 yeas old.

Actually, the problem with eBay, unlike other auction companies, is that the Seller pays all costs, the Buyer only pays the final auction price.(except for Sellers that jack up the shipping costs to pay some or all of the eBay fees. I actually had a Seller tell me this when I questioned a $15 shipping charge when Priority Mail is $6.25 Bulk box. He was shipping it 1st class. I didn't bid on the coin).

When you have the Seller paying the eBay, PayPal if used (they only stopped requiring PayPal when they sold the company), and percentage of the sale price, you are going to get eBay favoring the person they make their profit from.

They only offer help to the Buyer, because without buyers, there isn't a sale.

 

Perhaps it's because ebay knows anyone can report a listing, be them experts or idiots? Let's be honest here; just because someone reports a listing, this doesn't make them right even if the cointalk crew generally seems to think so.

If all it took was a couple reports to get any and every listing removed, how long do you suppose it would take for people to start reporting the competition's listings? If this seller is as bad as you claim, the bigger problem would be the fact that there are literally tons of morons leaving positive feedback for a should-be negative experience. Either that or maybe, just maybe, most are happy with whatever they've purchased.

 

Miscommunication---- I wasn't talking about the Seller mentioned in this thread, I was talking about the situation in general----which means I broke my own rule, when you talk about things in general you generally are wrong.

I'm fortunate, I've never really had a problem with an eBay seller and that's probably because I not only read the headline, but if the Seller takes the time, I also read what is listed about the item in the body of the sale.

 

You don't have to be an expert to know that the word "COPY" is required on a replica coin.
You don't need to be an expert to know that replica coins are not allowed to be sold on ebay.
You don't need to be an expert to notice that a Seller has sent you a different coin than the one you paid for.

Or, maybe, just maybe, ebay doesn't really give a care whether or not, Sellers follow their guidelines as long as the money is flowing in. The plethora of (possibly) unwarranted positive feedback could be easily explained for many, many reasons. One of those reasons could be, as you point out, that everyone is happy with their purchase. There are other explanations that could maybe, just maybe, also be true. Jack

 

I don't want anyone, who may take offence with this post, to think I'm directing it toward anyone in particular. As a member of the Board of Directors of our coin club (very large , only one in the area) I'm frequently called upon to make presentations. We have a monthly BOD meeting and we are truly surprised by the lack of basic knowledge of numismatics that a great number of our members have.

I'm constantly telling them that the reason I know something is because I read a lot of coin books. We have a large library, in a rented room and a retired librarian that with notice will meet any member there and let them check out books. Talk to any coin shop owner and they will tell you the abuse they take when someone tries to sell them something they overpaid for on a TV coin show. I think the same holds true for eBay, they are there to sell things, not educate people and a lot of people who should know better, but don't are buying coins and currency on eBay that they shouldn't.

I collect Kennedys and just picked up a 1970 S PCGS PF65 DDO FS101 for $75; the same coin came up in the same search for $375----someone will buy that coin. Why? They don't know how to do a search? They have more money than brains? I don't know the answer, but it truly makes me sad to see people overprice a coin and hope that somebody at some point will buy it.

 

I'm guessing you're not too familiar with this forum; this little tidbit seems to escape the majority here.

I fully agree that feedback can, and often is mostly meaningless, and that ebay cares first about the almighty dollar, but the fact remains that not all buyers/potential buyers/ebay users are the upstanding individuals we might like to think they are and this reality must be taken into consideration.

 

You and I are in complete agreement Books. I also agree with TheMont that we, all of us, are responsible for every one of our purchases/trades. No one forces us to buy or trade. Each individual collector is responsible for their own education (or lack thereof). I understand that Sellers are running a business and, I have no complaint with someone profiting from their own labor. And, after all, ultimately it is always "Buyer beware." A buyer of any collectible who doesn't make an effort to educate him/her self, invites their own unhappiness.

My previous post was in no way meant to be an indictment of Sellers in general. Personally, I have only left one negative feedback in all the time I've used ebay (the one I cited above). As a rule, if I get the coin I ordered in some semblance of a timely manner, I leave five star feedback. There is no shortage of jerks on ebay, and I would guess there are probably many more bad Buyers, than Sellers.

As for your comment regarding my length of time on this forum, I have no idea what you are implying. I joined Coin Talk in March of last year. I also spend time on another forum "Community." Jack

 

Reproduction or counterfeit: Either way, it isn't genuine.

 

It's just language, the only thing that separates the two?
I Should have been a lawyer,and
Sorry for the comment.