couple of "barbs" slipped through

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Victor_Clark, Jul 6, 2023.

  1. Victor_Clark

    Victor_Clark all my best friends are dead Romans Dealer

    Not only are the barbarians at the gate, a couple got in.

    I collect unofficial Constantine era coins and like examples that look pretty close to official. I have two that were slabbed and were not noted as "barbarous" on the labels.


    This Constantine I from Trier is not bad but the bust is wrong, especially the eyes. The letters are awkward, specifically note how the first S of Constantine's name looks more like a C. The soldiers don't look right with tiny stick legs.

    Con1_Trier_unofficial.JPG

    Con1_label.JPG



    This Constantine II has a pretty bad bust with a square head. The reverse is a bit of a mess. The soldier on the left is dangerously leaning. The X on the standard is not right and the mintmark should be TRP instead of PTR. There are more minor discrepancies.



    Con II Trier unofficial.jpg

    Con II slab.png




    the two below have "Barbarous" included

    slab_1.jpg

    Diocletian_unofficial_campgate.jpg


    slab_2.jpg

    Constantine_IOVI_overstruck.jpg

    Constantine I IOVI from Siscia overstruck with unofficial VLPP Constantine I. AD 307/310-337. Æ Follis (21.5mm, 4.06 g). Contemporary imitation. Struck circa AD 320s. Helmeted and cuirassed bust right / Two Victories standing, holding inscribed shield [wreath] over altar. Overstruck on an a Siscia mint follis of Constantine I. For undertype cf. RIC VII Siscia 7

    IMP CONSTANTINVS AVG; laureate head right.
    IOVI CONSERVATORI; Jupiter standing l., chlamys across l. shoulder, leaning on sceptre and holding Victory on globe in r. hand; eagle with wreath to l. on ground; in right field ?.
    in ex. SIS
     
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  3. Mat

    Mat Ancient Coincoholic

    There is just something cute about them. Almost, as if they were made by children.
     
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  4. Victor_Clark

    Victor_Clark all my best friends are dead Romans Dealer

    Yes, some of these can look very childish; but my favorites are examples that can be hard to distinguish from official coins.

    This coin is an unrecorded combination of dies, commonly referred to as a mule. Obverse is likely Trier 540 and the reverse is a Constantinopolis Trier 543. It is most likely that this coin, though in very good style, is unofficial.

    Trier_Constantinopolis.jpg

    Constantius II
    Circa A.D. 332- 333
    19mm 2.0g
    FL IVL CONSTANTIVS NOB C; laureate and cuirassed bust right.
    REV: Victory stg. on prow, holding long scepter in r. hand, and resting l. hand on shield.
    in ex. TR•P



    This coin was a plate coin (#452MG) in Failmezger’s Roman Bronze Coins: From Paganism to Christianity 294-364 A.D. I’m sure that it is unofficial.

    GLORIA_Lyon_Magnentius.jpg


    Magnentius
    Circa A.D. 350- 353
    19mm 3.2g
    DN MAGNENTIVS P F AVG; bare-headed, draped and cuirassed, A behind bust.
    GLORIA ROMANORV; Magnentius on horseback spearing barbarian.
    In ex. RPLG
    Cf. RIC VIII Lyons 115


    This Constantine II is in good style, but bust left is not in RIC for this issue. The reverse style is very strange for Ticinum, especially the large turrets.

    Constantine_II_Ticinum_campgate.jpg


    Constantine II
    A.D. 326
    18x19mm 2.6gm
    CONSTANTINVS IVN NOB C; Laureate, draped and cuirassed bust left.
    PROVIDEN-TIAE CAESS; camp gate with two turrets and star between them.
    In ex. T crescent T
    Cf. RIC VII Ticinum 200


    Here's a Magnentius that is not bad, but has a few issues.

    Trier_SALVS_Magnentius.jpg

    Magnentius
    A.D. 350-3
    20x21mm 4.0gm
    D N MAGNENTIVS P F AV[G]; bare-headed, draped & cuirassed bust right, A behind bust.
    SALVS DD NN AVG ET CAES; large Chi-Rho flanked by N-W
    In ex. TRP
    Cf. RIC VIII Trier 320



    Here's a Constantine I that would pass a casual inspection

    Trier_GLORIA.jpg


    Constantine I
    Circa A.D. 332-3
    15x16mm 2.0g
    CONSTAN-TINVS AVG; rosette-diadem, draped and cuirassed bust.
    GLOR-IA EXERC-ITVS; Two soldiers helmeted, stg. facing one another, reversed spear in outer hands, inner hands on shields resting on the ground; between them two standards.
    in ex. TR • P
    RIC VII Trier ---



    This coin has been overstruck and the style looks good; but it would be remarkable if it was official, as mint overstrikes for this period are almost non-existent. The undertype is not really visible, but it might be an IOVI type issued 321- 324, but since London is further than these might have normally circulated and pretty far outside of the territory of Licinius, maybe an earlier issue like a Sol type.

    Crispus_London_overstruck.png


    Crispus. Æ Follis (22mm, 3.44 g, 6h). Londinium (London) mint. Struck AD 324. Laureate head right / VOT/X in two lines within laurel wreath; PLON(crescent). Cf. RIC VII 291


    Sometimes unofficial coins from this period look very close in style to official coinage. Pierre Bastien in “Imitations of Late Roman Bronze Coins, 318-363.” ANSMN 30(1985) said this about imitations of the 318 reform and the Magnentian period..."the forgers sometimes engrave portraits of a quality close to that of the originals and some reverses cannot be distinguished from those of regular coins." So, sometimes you can never really be sure, but must rely on a “gut feeling”.
     
  5. romismatist

    romismatist Well-Known Member

    I wonder if some of these were minted by official celators making a little money by moonlighting on the side LOL
     
  6. Victor_Clark

    Victor_Clark all my best friends are dead Romans Dealer


    Constantine I certainly thought so and issued this law in A.D. 321—

    "Since some imperial minters are secretly and criminally engaged in the coinage of counterfeit (adulterinus) money, all shall know that the necessity is incumbent on them of seeking out such men, that they be tracked down and delivered to the courts, so that they may forwith betray the accomplices of their deeds through torture and thereupon be sentenced to suitable punishments." Theodosian Code 21:2
     
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  7. Mat

    Mat Ancient Coincoholic

    I don't own any "Barbs", but I see them every so often. They are fun coins, to view.
     
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  8. Victor_Clark

    Victor_Clark all my best friends are dead Romans Dealer

    here's a recent acquisition

    Diocletian_Carthage_13a_unofficial.jpg

    Diocletian
    AD 296- 298
    AR Argenteus
    17x19mm 3.0g
    DIOCLETIANVS AVG; Laureate head right
    F ADVENT AVGG N N; Africa standing facing, head left, holding standard and tusk; at her feet, lion standing left, head right, with bucranium to left.
    In ex. P
    cf. RIC VI Carthage 13a




    and my most recent (which would not have fooled anyone)-- a two-headed Constantine coin
    Circa A.D. 320
    16x18mm 2.7g

    two_headed.jpg
     
  9. Mat

    Mat Ancient Coincoholic

    "I'll flip you for it, Constantine or Constantine The Great", "Which is which?, "I Don't know, how about the side with the bigger/"greater" head?" "Uh...Okay"....:wacky:
     
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  10. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member

    Some great barbs! My favorites are the barbs depicting barbarians/captives.

    The following coin has an official RIC number (RIC IX, p. 220, 41b.7) but no illustration and no specimen cited! I've been unable to find another specimen illustrated, nor have a few others who've looked for one (e.g., @rasiel Suarez, who had it in gray in ERIC II, or S. Caza [FAC 130449 (24 Jan 2023)]). It makes me wonder if the official type existed at all, or if it only exists as a "barb":

    Valens Captive Crosses RIC 41b-7.png
    Valens (Barbarous?) AE3 (17mm, 1.91g, 6h), Constantinople, 367-375 CE (for prototype).
    Obverse: (D N VALENS) P F AVG. Bust of Valens, pearl-diademed, draped and cuirassed, right.
    Reverse: (GLORIA) ROMANORVM / CONSΔ in ex. Emperor advancing right, dragging captive with right hand and holding labarum in left. Crosses in fields to left and right.
    References: ERIC II p. 1098, No. 493 (tentative) = RIC (IX, Constantinople) 41b, Subtype 7 [+/+//CONSΔ]; OCRE 41b.7 [LINK] (Zero examples cited); Esty Reverse Type 5 [LINK] for GLORIA ROMANORVM Emperor dragging captive.
    Provenance: Acq. 9 Oct 2013 from N. Hochrein (Holding History Coins [DePere, WI USA]) for $2.11.


    Here's another fun one that I bought recently in a group lot. A tiny (really tiny -- 10mm, 0.43g) Constantinian brockage, presumably from Britain:
    Barbarous AE10 Brockage Constantinian Wettmark .png
    Roman Britain (Roman Imperial, “Barbarous” Contemporary Imitative). Constantine (?) AE Minimus (10mm, 0.43g, 12h), obverse brockage, c. 330-340s (?).
    Obv: Pearl-diademed, cuirassed bust right.
    Rev: Incuse image of obv.
    Ref: Cf. Bishops Canning 392, Chapmanslade 699, Maidenhatch 69-71 for imitations of Trier & Lugdunum mint GLORIA EXERCITVS types.
    Prov: Ex Martin Wettmark Collection (acq. eBay USA, April 2017; CNG EA 525 [19 Oct 2022], 1835 [part]).
    Notes: Very small even for a British imitative (of 877 imitations in the Chapmanslade hoard, ~1 - 2% this small). Aside from some Byzantine era Trachy, this is by far the smallest brockage of bronze of a coin that I’ve found (certainly for the Roman Imperial period, including imitations).


    My favorite "barb" of all: For something a little different, here is one of the Barbarous (?) Cappadocian Drachms that Bono Simonetta and Otto Morkholm argued about so bitterly.

    Ariarathes V 3 or barbarous imitation ex Simonetta Cappadocia Bertolami BFA.jpg
    Cappadocia, Ariarathes V [Morkholm, Barb. Imit.] AR Drachm (19mm, 3.70g, 12h), c. 160 BCE (?). Ariarathes diademed / Athena.

    This example was cited in B. Simonetta's 1958 & 1961 articles, then first illustrated in his 1974 RIN article and the 1977 collection catalog.

    Simonetta 1977-15b 1974-10.jpg

    Confusingly, B. Simonetta described these as “Dramma barbarica … di Ariarathes V,” and as being of "very barbarous style" ... but NOT imitatives. Instead, he vigorously defended his claim that this was an official issue of Ariarathes V. They were of barbarous style, he argued, due to the stresses of the revolt of Orophernes, 161-159 BCE.

    Otto Morkholm, with whom almost everyone agreed, recognized it as an obviously unofficial issue. Simonetta's examples "comprise barbarian imitations which should be kept separate from the royal coinage" (Morkholm 1968, p. 250; see also 1969, p. 30)

    I don't have Alberto Simonetta's (the son) 2007 Parthica catalog of the collection (hard to find a copy at all, much less one under c. $200), but I'd love to know where he falls on this issue. In some cases, he softened his father's positions. I've seen these cited to Simonetta 2007 as "Ariarathes VIII?" (this coin supposedly on pl. XV as "3a", but described on p. 77, as "3b").
     
  11. Pellinore

    Pellinore Well-Known Member

    Couple of barbs!
    In my eyes, this is a nicely designed barb (on a decorative table)
    2919 B.jpg

    Constantinus I. 307 - 337 AD. AE-Follis. 'Barbarous' imitative issue. Obv. Helmeted bust r. DVVDVVVV… Rev. Two stylized Victories are holding on to a shield with fantasy lettering over an altar with a cross. Fantasy lettering (VVDVVV). In exergue, SAAAG. 17 mm, 2.62 g. Fine style.

    2963 barb ct.jpg

    Constantinus II as caesar, ca. 320-325 (prototype). AE follis. Local imitation. Stylized laureated bust t.l./Wreath with II/ XX. Obv. with ‘mumble script’ (WW CO...), rev. says 'NOVIONAANRIOVX'. 18.5 mm, 2.90 gr.

    2931 B gr.jpg

    AE imitation of a follis of Constans or Constantinus II. Trier, 348 or later. Obv. Draped and diademed bust right. DN II (…) / PFAG. Rev. Emperor standing left on galley, holding something [phoenix on globe], Victory seated right, steering the boat. TR in exergue. 22 x 20 mm, 3.1 gr.
     
  12. Victor_Clark

    Victor_Clark all my best friends are dead Romans Dealer

    I have an interest in Siscian VLPP barbs and am not even sure how many I have...400-500? Here are a few of my favorites-- though these are really abstract and none would have passed as official.

    reverse is uniface-


    Barb38.jpg


    barb59.jpg


    Barb81.jpg


    Barb_138.jpg

    Barb_154.jpg
     
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  13. GinoLR

    GinoLR Well-Known Member

    Tetricus I 2.jpg
    My only "barb" is a Tetricus.
    Obv.: MP C TITRICVS [...] (sic) , radiate and cuirassed bust right
    Rev.: FIDE MILITVM (sic) , Fides standing left holding two standards
     
  14. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    Nobody'd mistake this one for an official anything!

    Barbarous Radiate June 2018 (0).jpg
    Barbarous Radiate
    Æ Antoninianus
    Gaul / Northern Europe
    (c. 274-300s A.D.)

    V I S A (?), cuirassed and radiate bust right (Tetricus?) / APTE retrograde C,
    unidentified goddess standing
    (reverse double-struck).
    (0.84 grams / 16 mm)
    eBay June 2018
     
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  15. Homer2

    Homer2 Well-Known Member

    Does NGC offer anything for a misidentified graded coin? I suppose they are still XF examples, but not filled with utmost confidence by this.

    Very interesting variants to contemporary coinage. I'm certainly interesting in finding examples, but worry about newer imitations/fakes. It takes a keen eye and a lot of looks.
     
  16. Pellinore

    Pellinore Well-Known Member

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