Mystery Countermark

Discussion in 'World Coins' started by Chris B, May 20, 2023.

  1. Chris B

    Chris B Supporter! Supporter

    Good evening, all. I recently purchased this British Penny with an unknown countermark. While it isn't all visible, the elements would appear to make it identifiable...to the right person. I have looked through the portion of Brunk on Great Britain and it is not shown.

    Anyone want to take a stab at it?

    GB186205.jpg
     
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  3. mrweaseluv

    mrweaseluv Supporter! Supporter

    Brunk has nothing similar and I've had no luck finding similar... closest I find are from the west indies that chopped a square out with the same zigzag pattern.. the 8 pointed stars have me thinking islamic or india for some reason
     
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  4. BRandM

    BRandM Counterstamp Collector

    That's a tough one given that the stamp is badly struck.

    I see what appears to be a curled tail across the left side of the portrait. If I had to guess, I'd say a lion's tail but everything to the right is undecipherable. There's also a series of scratches across the portrait...an X or diamond shape maybe?

    Interesting that all the "additions" are applied over the portrait of the Queen. This suggests a deliberate defacement. Other than that I can't make out any additional details. Interesting coin though.

    Bruce
     
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  5. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    Very intriguing! Alas, I haven't a clue. Neat piece, though.
     
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  6. H8_modern

    H8_modern Attracted to small round-ish art

    I can’t help but I’m interested in the answer
     
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  7. Chris B

    Chris B Supporter! Supporter

    I hadn't considered that but it does make sense.

    I can see that. It makes sense to me. There are signs of something just to the right of her hair as well. I was concentrating so much on the countermark that I didn't even notice the scratches.

    This one is going to bug me. Believe it or not it's in an NGC holder, not submitted by me. My thought is that whoever submitted it thought NGC would bail them out and attribute the countermark. Alas, all they say is "private countermark".

    GB186203.jpg
     
  8. Collecting Nut

    Collecting Nut Borderline Hoarder

    Very interesting
     
  9. BRandM

    BRandM Counterstamp Collector

    NGC doesn't attribute these but just marks them as they did in this example.

    Bruce
     
  10. BRandM

    BRandM Counterstamp Collector

    With your permission I'm going to show your pictures to a couple of guys I know who might have an answer for you They're pretty good at deciphering these obscure marks.

    Bruce
     
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  11. Chris B

    Chris B Supporter! Supporter

    That's fine with me. I appreciate the help.
     
  12. BRandM

    BRandM Counterstamp Collector

    Thanks, Chris B. BTW, the things you see to the right of the Queen's head is the remnants of a ribbon she wears in the portrait...nothing to do with the counterstamp.

    Bruce CT Counter 4.jpg
     
  13. Chris B

    Chris B Supporter! Supporter

    I'm looking further right, almost to the legend. There is a very faint almost circular object.
     
  14. jgenn

    jgenn World Crown Collector

    Think about why coins are countermarked. Clearly there was no need in Great Britain in the late 19th century to countermark their own issues. And what nation would need to countermark a copper coin from a country so widely known as Great Britain? It's not like it's silver or gold where you need to accept it based on its precious metal content. Was there someplace that placed such value on copper?

    Edit: Oh, I suppose if a currency valuation was changed then any circulating tokens might be stamped to show that they conform to the new standard but that would typically be an official decree and leave behind some historical evidence. Without other examples to match to, this is likely an obscure merchant stamp used for some forgotten reason.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2023
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  15. KBBPLL

    KBBPLL Well-Known Member

    I noted that the important elements of the counterstamp are raised and not incuse. Seems like it would be difficult to implement versus the usual, where the elements are struck into the coin instead of trying to raise it above the surface. That's all I got...
     
  16. BRandM

    BRandM Counterstamp Collector

    Many counterstamps are cut that way.
    The raised part of the design is actually even with the coin's surfaces and only appears to be above. The design actually sits in a depression that is slightly below the surfaces. This is evidenced by the rim and points of the serrated depression which are both even with the coin's fields.

    Bruce
     
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  17. Cheech9712

    Cheech9712 Every thing is a guess

    Brilliant
     
  18. Joshua Lemons

    Joshua Lemons Well-Known Member Supporter

    The square edges and the serrations on the border remind me of a postage stamp. Neat though I have nothing to help answer your question.
     
  19. BRandM

    BRandM Counterstamp Collector

    I got some feedback from my contacts. One guy I know from the UK whos a British trade token expert but particularly in communion tokens chimed in.

    He says it reminds him very much of the design often seen on late 18th century / early 19th century communion tokens. The serrated border, corner ornaments, and letters in the middle for the parish or minister are consistent with the designs. So he feels that the coin was struck with an old genuine die used to strike these tokens.

    Interestingly, another advanced collector from France sketched what he thought he could see in the worn sections. He also felt that it could have been from a communion token die.

    It's not likely of Arabic origin.

    Bruce Comm Token 3a.jpg
     
  20. BRandM

    BRandM Counterstamp Collector

    The man who thought it might be a communion token has several references that he's going to check. He's away now so it will be about a week before he can access them.

    Bruce
     
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  21. Chris B

    Chris B Supporter! Supporter

    The communion token makes sense to me. I used to have some but parted with them some time ago. The visible part is vaguely familiar which is bugging me. I know private tokens were a thing of the past by this point but that idea holds water in my opinion.
     
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