My ex-John Quincy Adams RR denarius is on the way back from NGC, but...

If they don't, they're living dangerously by offering it as an extra-cost service.

 

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I hope this resolves in your favor. @sand thanks for all the research efforts!

 

Oops. You're correct. I now remember, that @lordmarcovan mentioned it, in his 1st and 3rd posts in this thread. I saw that, but then I forgot.
Still, I wonder, how much proof NGC requires, in order to put a provenance on a slab. Perhaps the burden of proof increases, if it's someone famous like John Quincy Adams, or if it's an extremely valuable coin like a gold Eid Mar.

 

If they don't recognize the pedigree I would petition to have it recognized. I would be extremely surprised if they declined, as this is from a well known collection.

 

I thought you meant the pedigree.

 

Hi All,

Does the coin have to be photographed in the original sale catalog of the Adams collection to have the pedigree recognized?

- Broucheion

 

Above & beyond, you rock

 

What is the reason being given for not including (or recognising) the pedigree?

 

I find it curious that you're more annoyed at the lack of a pedigree than you are about being sold a fourre as an authentic coin. Anyway, concerning the pedigree, NGC requires more proof than "CNG says so" on a coin that comes from a famous collection and auction catalog. Had you submitted the original Stack's ticket, or had CNG included the other coins from the lot in their sale so the lot could be pieced together in way that made them look like the JQA coins, or even if JQA had included a weight in their description that could be matched up, we would have included the pedigree. Unforunately, all we have is CNG who is relying on the collector who has no evidence of any kind to go on, or at least didn't provide any. If you want to send the coin back in, we would be happy to put the CNG pedigree on the ticket which would then link it to the JQA collection.

Concerning East Harp Tree hoard, this hoard was sold primarily intact and CNG ended up with the bulk of the hoard. All the coins have a very similar patina and can easily be identified as coming from the hoard. As CNG owned the hoard and has no reason to salt the hoard with non-hoard coins, we feel confident that the coins that they say came from the hoard actually came from the hoard.

NGC includes provable pedigrees on labels all the time. Concerning the Eid Mar aureus, when that was submitted Roma submitted it with the supposed pedigree. As none of it was verifiable, we didn't include it on the ticket.

Barry Murphy

 

You only briefly mentioned the fourre but went off on the pedigree. It was my interpretation as to which annoyed you more. A ticket from JQA would have definitely helped.

Perhaps you can contact CNG. Maybe they have more info then "the consignor said so" that they didn't include with the lot.

Barry

 

Stack's really screwed up this catalog by not including more photos. While certainly not the most valuable or important collection of ancient coins, the pedigree to the Adams family should have warranted illustrating most if not all of the coins.

Interestingly there are several coins that look fake in the illustrations, and one obvious fake (lot 728) not mentioned by Stacks. I guess they had to contend with forgeries back then as well.

Barry

 

Congratulations that CNG will take back the fourree.
By the way, looking through the Stack's 1971 catalog, I wonder how many of the coins in the Stack's 1971 auction, were owned by John Quincy Adams himself, and how many of the coins were acquired by his son and grandson after JQA's lifetime. On the title page of the Stack's 1971 catalog, it says "Featuring the Collection of President John Quincy Adams and Descendants". And, in the catalog section "THE ADAMS FAMILY AS COLLECTORS", it mentions that JQA's son and grandson also were very interested in coins. For example, the following quote is from the Stack's 1971 catalog.
"It consisted of about 10,000 coins in all categories spanning the numismatic spectrum from the Ancient world to modem times and was formed by three generations."
And the following quote from the Stack's 1971 catalog.
"When the Historical Society was able to take stock of its new acquisition in 1914 the curator. Dr. Storer, made a most illumi- nating comment about it. He wrote, "Apparently it was the aim of Mr. Adams to form a collection fairly representative of the numismatic science throughout the ages, rather than to specialize in any particular field, as is more apt to be the practice of modern numismatists." Just which Mr. Adams he means in this case is perhaps not clear but the judgment would seem to apply fairly to all three men."
Interestingly, there is also the following quote in the Stack's 1971 catalog, earlier in the same paragraph as the above quote.
"John Quincy Adams made a list of his holdings in 1813. A further list compiled by Charles Francis shows additions made to the collection by his father and himself down to 1838. It would appear that in all probability he received the entire collection from his father at some time between 1834 and 1838. During the next few years his numismatic activity increased, reaching its high point about 1864 while he was Minister in London."
JQA passed away in 1848 at age 80.
It would be interesting, if someone could find either of the above 2 lists. If one wanted to ensure, that one had a coin which was owned by JQA himself, rather than acquired by his son or grandson after JQA's lifetime, then it would be helpful to have the above 2 lists.
However, I imagine that, even owning a coin which was aquired by JQA's son or grandson after JQA's lifetime, would probably be important to one of JQA's descendants, such as yourself. Also, there is the following quote from the Stack's 1971 catalog.
"His son, Charles Francis Adams (1807-1886), was also active in politics and diplomacy, serving as Minister to Great Britain during the Civil War. His grandson, Henry Adams (1838-1918), became one of our most renowned historians and authors."

 

I somehow thought that a fourre was an authentic coin, just not an authorized coin.

 

Yes. Many fourrees are counterfeits, which were created at approximately the same time, as the corresponding official coins. Such a coin is often called a "contemporary counterfeit" or (as on the NGC slab) "ancient forgery". Such coins are interesting and collectible.
The problem, was that CNG did not mention, that the coin was a fourree, in the CNG auction listing. Perhaps, CNG did not notice, that the coin was a fourree. It's not obvious, from the photos.

 

It may not be obvious from the photo, but the weight should have been an indication that there was an issue. It’s half a gram light. There are 2 3.2 gram denarii of this issue on Coin Archives, both Fourres, and only this one in the 3.3 range. 3.3 should have rung some bells and whistles. There are also small spots of copper showing through, and the specific gravity test we did confirmed it was mostly copper.

Barry