Okay, so are all American coins that have a square edge proof? For example I have a 1988 P nickel. I looked in the mega red and it has an S proof and a P and a D. I've been trying to find information about the edge or rim, if I'm getting this right, of a coins normal. specifically to nickels.. but I can't seem to find any information. so I thought I'd come on here and ask you guys. I was reading about "impaired" proofs. Looking more into that info as well. Thanks!
No. Some good business strikes (usually the first struck by a die) may also have the squared rims, but modern proofs are very easy to tell from their uncirculated counterparts. Proof nickels of that year were only made in San Francisco, so it would have the S mint mark. Proof is a method of minting the coin. The polished dies give the proof frosting and mirrors while multiple strikes to the same blank give the increased detail and the square rims. Now, the issue is normally that the squared rim business strikes are on early issues because the mint struck fewer coins. By the 1980s, they were cranking them out so fast that quality and strike time diminished, so they are often "shallow" looking compared to earlier coins.
I have seen mis-aligned nickels with a thicker edge on them that could mimic a proof but the finish would be the telltale sign of a circulation strike. The rest of the features would also not be as sharp as a proof. For instance, the mirror like or mirrored fields, sharpness of all other features.
So basically other coins that ate not proof could have squared edges but it is not the normal? And if they is a non proof coin with squared edges then start looking for other attributes? Or could i just say the Mega Red doesn't have a coin listed for P proof (example) so there for it had to be a business strike?
Yes, the Redbook will say if there's a proof issue and the mint mark it should have. Most modern proofs have an S mintark.
So it is possible for there not to be a proof P (example) in the Mega red for year (insert year that has none) That has a squared edge on a penny? I am so confused cuz i thought the squared edge was indicative of a proof but now they are telling that business strikes can have them. If a proof had gotten into curculation, it would experience normal wear and tear wouldnt it? How would you identify A no-S if squared edges arent specific to them? And you are saying a P from a year that has no P proof could display a squared edge on its business strike? No wonder this stuff is so hard lol
Ok but my question is regarding edges and why would a squared edge would be on a non proof coin? I'm trying to figure out distinguishing characteristics of proof coins that have been in circulation, which would therefore make them hard to discern from a normal proof that wasn't in circulation. cuz they would get the normal wear and tear. then I also want to ask about where there's years where there's no proofs, for a particular mint like the Philadelphia, Why would a penny show a squared edge all the way around?? this is where my confusion lies. but then they were saying that the business strikes could have a squared edge. like I understand! the mirrored and all that other stuff tand the double strike.. I got that. but how can you tell that on something that's been worn??? technically what I'm asking is if there's a proof coin for example let's just take the no s 1990 if she gets into circulation... are you going to be able to tell it's different from a business strike?? if it's got damage, it has been worn out from being in circulation??? these are my questions I'm trying to understand cuz it doesn't make sense. I can't find a definitive answer... which is what I need to understand! I'm getting very frustrated lol
To the best of my knowledge, all proofs have squared edges (not sure about proofs from other countries or the 1800's) and all business strike coins have chamfered edges. The only place I have seen business strike coins mentioned with a squared off edge is in this thread. The chamfer is added to aid in the stacking of coins. Since 1968 to the present, all proofs are struck at San Francisco or West Point. The edge view you show above looks squared at the front, but on the left side, the reflection of light seems to show a chamfer. Perhaps Doug @GDJMSP or @paddyman98 or @Insider might be of help here.
That's just it Kristine, a business strike coin (non proof coin) will not have what are referred to as a squared edges. And yes, the word edges is plural and it's important to understand that. But, as often happens when it comes to terminology, sometimes important parts of a word are forgotten and the word is used incorrectly. In other words, in common every day speech most folks will simply say squared edge. And like what I can only assume has happened with you, that sometimes leads to misunderstanding. Also, if you were to take a business strike that you "think" has squared edges and place it right beside a Proof - you'd see the differences in the rims/edge of the two different coins immediately. The reason you'd see the differences immediately is because of the plural word - edges - I mentioned above. That's because it's not just the top, outer corners of the rim that is squared off, the inner corners of the rim are also squared off. And they stay squared off even after the coin suffers wear because the inner corners of the rim are far more protected than the outer corners. Again, your basic comment is incorrect. Even if a Proof has been in circulation and suffered wear, it's not hard to see that the coin is a Proof. Now maybe not to the untrained eye, but to anyone who knows coins they'll see it immediately. That's because there are several differences between Proofs and business strike coins besides the squared edges. For example, Proofs have a completely different finish than business strikes. And even an impaired Proof, one that has been in circulation and suffered wear, will still have some of that different finish that is readily visible. And in some cases almost all of that different finish will be readily visible. Also, all Proofs are struck at least twice, and with higher pressure, and typically their dies will have clearer, sharper detail than business strikes have. And with business strike coins the dies are used until they wear out. But with Proofs, that is not the case. Long before a Proof die begins to show any wear in its details it is discarded and no longer used. These things result in the Proof coin having clearer, sharper detail than the business strikes. And again, even with wear, all of this is readily visible. Bottom line, impaired Proofs are readily and easily identified as Proofs. The last thing I would mention is pictures, as well as in hand examination. With pics, like the one you posted above, don't take the pic where all you can see is the edge of the coin. Take the pic from the top view, as close to vertical as you can get it. And the same basic idea applies to in hand examination, view the coin from the top, not the side. For only by viewing from the top can you see the inner corners of the rim, as well as the outer corners. Hopefully this has answered your questions. But if ya still have some, ask away.
When searching nickels, looking at the edges of a roll of nickels would usually reveal an opportunity to snag an impaired proof or SMS coin. But not always. There are early die stage strikes that appear proof-like. So your other diagnostic skills are needed. As with most things where great care is taken, uniformity and quality usually follow. Proofs are a classic examples. Many proofs become compromised so when this happens, these coins are usually liberated and spent. This gives collectors an opportunity to snag proofs in circulation. Indeed most of my proofs are impaired proofs. It happens a lot with nickels and cents. Fun to find them!
I didn't know that. Is the chamfer added to the planchet during the upsetting process? Wouldn't it be for a proof also? Does the proof lose it's chamfer in the striking process?
The only proof I ever found in the wild was an Eisenhower dollar. I used to pick up any the bank had when I deposited my paycheck back in the 70's and once going through them one flashed me like a rising sun...
My first impaired proof was a state quarter (S mint) and likewise, it was still quite flashy. But after that, searching cents and nickels, I found a couple dozen. Most had notable defects which I'm sure led to the liberating, then the usual circulation wear. I recall a 1975 S Jefferson that other than some residual mirror finish around the devices, it looked quite like a normal business strike.
No. No, it never had one to begin with. It's all about the dies. It's very simple, Proof dies are made so that the corners of the rims have sharp squared off edges. Business strike dies do not. That's really all there is to it.
@Kristine Garrant There is a very good reason you may be confused. I've noticed that you are a lot like me and others. You like to deal in "BLACK & WHITE," - it is or it is not. There are very good responses on this thread. Unfortunately in numismatics, GRAY is often the color needed to explain something. That is unfortunate and must also be disapointing. This is my short and simple answer to your question. I don't think you will like it but you'll need to learn it and live with it. I am making my reply extremely simple - not talking down to you or to the very knowledgeable members here but to possibly help the lurking members much less knowledgeable than yourself: Proof coins are different from Business strikes. As a result, MOST proof strikes look entirely different. There are USUALLY several differences that are considered charactistics of Proof coins. Sooner or later anyone looking at enough coins will discover that any of these Proof characteristics can be found on coins not struck as proofs! The commonny listed characteristics of Proof coins are: 1. Mirror-like surface. 2. Sharp strongdetails. 3. Sharp, flat, squared-off rims. 4. Shiny, sharp flat edge. 5. Virtually no sign of die errosion. As I posted above there are very many exceptions. In fact, especially with some of our coins made of Niclel, even long-time proffessional coin graders have shown that they cannot tell with 100% accuracy whether a coin is Proof or not because MOST OR ALL OF THESE CHARACTERISTICS ARE MISSING! The Red Book is our guide to business strike coins that also were struck as Proofs and the coins that were ONLY struck as Proofs. IF YOU, ME, OR ANYONE ELSE HAS A COIN IN THEIR HAND (at this point in time) THAT IS NOT LISTED AS A PROOF IN THE RED BOOK, THERE IS A ZILLION TO ZERO CHANCE THEY HAVE FOUND A COIN THAT DOES NOT EXIST. This is one of those "BLACK & WHITE" cases I like.
No it wasnt thinking i had found one not in existence, but not realizing that a proof was what I had.
My post was not directed exclusively to you; but I used your question to build on. The other members answered your question, and my post was for the "lurkers" in an attempt to drive a nail into the coffin. I was dealing with a collector on the phone at work who was arguing about a normal dime being a valuable "no S" coin. As you might think, it gets very frustrating sometimes.
