Ancient coins and implied guarantees

4to2... I think you're getting too worked up about the slabs.

As for the FTC, screw them. You and I don't need some bureaucrat playing nanny with our choices and if you think they or any other government "watchdog" has even the most remote sympathy for your best interests your naive, which I don't think you are. Your just pissed about where a minor portion of the ancients market is going. Just look at what our government had been doing to our hobby in general with their MOU's and maybe you'll reconsider using them as your nightstick against NGC.

 

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Not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying that the number of US coin counterfeits is as high as the number of ancient coin counterfeits? I'm really at a loss here since I know next to nothing about US coins.

 

By the time this is thread is over I'm gonna be having nightmares of slabs, thanks guys.

 

"Could be worse. Could be raining."

(From Mel Brooks' Young Frankenstein.)

 

I'd rather not give a legal opinion on a forum. I hope all of you understand.

Anyway, I'm not going to beat up on NGC for now. They are gaining a great expert with Murphy, and hopefully he will make them better. Hey, Murphy spotted one of my coins as a fake, so I can't be mad at the guy. If NGC is getting him, that just means they are going to get all that much better.

I still won't do plastic slabs, but to each his own

 

Certainly do.

 

You know what..........you are absolutely correct.

I am out of here.

 

I'm not sure what has happened here. Lets get back to our coining and do whateva.....

 

"Seems to me that if they slab it, they believe it to be genuine."

That seems to be right to me also, and yes I do trust the graders at NGC more than most dealers. There are a few dealers I trust implicitly, and many more that I don't. And I'll be more honest than most, the NGC graders are more competent than I at authenticating ancients.

 

My head is spinning a bit.....NGC 'guarantees authenticity' but disavows it at the same time??? No wonder lawyers charge several hundreds of dollars an hour LOL

 

I think you're right and that the case does imply a guarantee, even if they have a disclaimer on the website. I think they could be susceptible to a class-action.

 

My thoughts:

Actually you are far too conservative. There are 1000's of times more ancient types and varieties than US coins. That's why the professionals at NGC, many there since 1980's know the US series. Every once and awhile they make an authentication error so they can back a solid guarantee. Ancients are a much different story. To have only one in house expert at the beginning placed an almost insurmountable task on David. I should not wish to be in his shoes. IF there ever was a problem at NGC Ancients, you can bet the company would take steps to improve or correct it. The new hire proves it.

See my post above. I believe the poster was writing about coin types. Nevertheless, there are plenty of US counterfeits but due to volume of coins struck over time and different types, authenticating ancients is much more difficult. The fact that very few have ANY SEMBLENCE of an original surface and much of them are corroded makes authentication even more difficult.

 

I'm sorry I was unable to express myself clearly. By 'unique types' I meant coin designs that have survived as only one specimen. Many specialists have a coin or two in this category and many that survive in small enough numbers that it is unlikely the two NGC graders would have ever touched one. Certainly their general expertise would make their opinion 99.9% valid but it is hardly like a series where every die ever used has been studied and recorded. I was not saying that it would be an easy task to be a 'guarantee worthy' expert on US coins but only that it would be a thousand times (million?) harder to have that same level of familiarity with all the ancients. NGC does limit itself by not grading some groups of coins (Cast, most Indian for example) but even just Greek and Roman is a huge area of study that simply is not going to fit in a single lifetime. I am amazed at how good a job some of the better numismatists do in only fifty years or so of hard work.

I would love to know how many different types and how many specimens of each pass through the coin trade in any given time period. I wonder how often a dealer with 25 years experience sees a coin that has not crossed his path before. Of course a lot of that number depends on just how exact a match you require to be called 'same'.

This is an extremely good point. Thank you for bringing it out.

 

Thanks both Insider and Dougsmit for addressing my confusion and clarifying this. I suspected that ancients would be more difficult to authenticate than US coins, but I lacked sufficient knowledge regarding US coins to allow me to assert this suspicion.

 

In this thread and others, it has been discussed that NGC does NOT guarantee authenticity. I was viewing youtube videos on ancient numismatics this morning and found this one entitled "Do Ancient Coins Need Third Party Grading?" Harlan Berk doesn't agree; David Vagi, of course, does; then Sam Spiegel of Heritage Auctions says (2:51-3:03):

"…we’re seeing that people are preferring to have their coins graded by third party companies. Because they just…they like having that added opinion on the authenticity of the coin…”



Oops, Sam! You need to read the terms of NGC's guarantee again...

 

He actually doesn't say that they guarantee authenticity, just that some folks like the "added opinion on the authenticity". Weasel words if you ask me.

 

This topic is incredibly multi-faceted. On its base, nobody who slabs ancients will offer a guarantee of authenticity (while at the same time they infer that they are doing so. I know, I think that is crappy and disingenuous, which is just one reason I would never slab an ancient). Likely the major reason is that experts often disagree on authenticity and often change their minds as well at different times. Also, there is the liability. They slightly attribute the coin, grade it and encapsulate it. That is the limit of their involvement of the coin. They dont own it. They didnt sell it. If they offered a guarantee of authenticity then that coin would bring them potential liability for as long as the company exists and as long as the coin remained in the holder. That would never happen. Only a dealer will give a lifetime guarantee.

But, as a side note: As I mentioned experts often change their minds on coins (or hoards). Many years ago there was a hoard (I wont mention which it is as I dont want this to turn into something else). For the first couple of years the coins were considered genuine. Then, doubts arose. Ultimately they were declared fake. OK. So, I was speaking with one dealer (we all know him, is one of the top experts in the world and is somewhat beyond reproach). We discussed the hoard and I explained why I felt they might be OK. He told me a long story of how he 'knew' they were fake, because he traveled to eastern Europe and actually bought ALL the dies used to make the hoard. When I questioned him further he refused to publish them, nor was he willing to show anyone these supposed dies (nor has he ever in the 25 years since). To this day this hoard is still condemned though no actual evidence (other than opinion) has ever produced or published. Ultimately, just an opinion (and I still think his story is bunk). And no, not the 'Black Sea Hoard' in case anyone is guessing! Nor did I ever buy any of them, so I had no financial gain or loss in the issue.

 

I don't see a problem here. They are clearly stating that slabbing conveys their opinion that the coins are authentic, but that they don't provide a guarantee. I agree that it's not as good as providing a guarantee, but the customer doesn't have to use their service if they don't like the terms (and most do not for ancients).