TESSERA (Clay) Greek/Roman - Help anyone?

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Topcat7, Jun 17, 2016.

  1. Ardatirion

    Ardatirion Où est mon poisson

    Both are totally real. The first is from Asia Minor, probably Ephesus. The second is from Rome, but the design is probably misdescribed. The designs on the cast ones can be super difficult to interpret. I can't make it out from the photo.
     
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  3. Ardatirion

    Ardatirion Où est mon poisson

    Exactly! That was probably me. :D
     
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  4. Topcat7

    Topcat7 Still Learning

    Thanks, everyone. (Esp. Mag. Max.)
    I am definitely leaning towards 'papyras bulla' (for my piece) because of the flat reverse.
    (From 'Et Tu Antiquities:)
    Bullae are small clay pellets which were commonly used to close and notarize papyrus documents in the Hellenistic and early Roman eras. Each carries an impression of an individual's seal ring on the obverse and the imprint of the papyrus fibers on the reverse. It is also common to find remnants of the sealer's fingerprint along the edges from the forming of the impression. The iconography depicted on bullae is individualized to the sealer and is a personal badge of importance to the person and/or his family. Somewhere in these bullae's long history, a fire probably destroyed the papyrus documents and preserved the unbaked clay. The(y) range in size from 10 to 20 millimeters across (3/8 to 3/4 inch) and portray a bit of the diversity available. (Mine 22mm x 18mm x 4mm. 1.67 gm.)
    I will remove it from my coin collection, and I shall place it amongst my 'antiquities'.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2016
  5. Ardatirion

    Ardatirion Où est mon poisson

    Does it have a channel running through it that a string or cord could have gone through?
     
  6. 4to2centBC

    4to2centBC Well-Known Member

    Any answer on this yet?
     
  7. Ken Dorney

    Ken Dorney Yea, I'm Cool That Way...

    The holes should look like these (if you can see them in the crappy pic I did). These are from a group that came to market in the early 90's (maybe before that, its just when I bought mine). The new ones clearly look fake to me (especially those with rare emperors). What bothers me is that the new ones look very close to the old ones in fabric, if not style.

    holes.jpg seals.jpg
     
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  8. Topcat7

    Topcat7 Still Learning

    It doesn't appear to have a channel like you describe.
     
  9. Magnus Maximus

    Magnus Maximus Dulce et Decorum est....

    Interesting, I'll email Gert again about this new revelation!
     
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  10. Valentinian

    Valentinian Well-Known Member

    The OP image looks a lot like the impression of a stamp seal. Even today some letter writers pour hot wax over the flap of an envelope and press stamp seals into the wax. If one side is a head, the other side is flat. It is common, in order to see the design of the seal better, to make impressions, sometimes in clay. Dealers do this when selling seals. I have a number of clay impressions of supposedly ancient seals (I don't have any seals, just old, but modern, impressions they made). So, I suggest the OP impression might be a modern impression of a stamp seal. Whether the original seal was ancient or not, I do not know.
     
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  11. Topcat7

    Topcat7 Still Learning

    @> Valentinian - I agree. I wrote -
    Bullae are small clay pellets which were commonly used to close and notarize papyrus documents in the Hellenistic and early Roman eras. Each carries an impression of an individual's seal ring on the obverse and the imprint of the papyrus fibers on the reverse . . . . . . . . . . .
    I will remove it from my coin collection, and I shall place it amongst my 'antiquities'.
     
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  12. Ardatirion

    Ardatirion Où est mon poisson

    If it is lacking this channel, I am almost certain it is a fake.
     
  13. Topcat7

    Topcat7 Still Learning

    @Ardatirion While I appreciate your input, I am afraid that 'almost' doesn't cut it.
    There are many of these that do not have holes for 'strings' because they have been used in other ways (such as to 'notorize' and to 'identify'). They were not only used to 'seal' a document by binding the two ends of a piece of 'string' around a document. Therefore, the absence of a 'hole', in itself, is not 'damning'.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2016
  14. Topcat7

    Topcat7 Still Learning

  15. Ardatirion

    Ardatirion Où est mon poisson

    Can you provide a citation? The only pieces I know of that are lacking this feature are from Seleukia and, if memory serves correct, of an entirely different fabric. I've spilled a lot of ink on this.

    "Almost" is very close to certain for me, in this case. You could confirm it by going through the current offerings on ebay and finding a match. They are all from the same source and all unequivocally fake.
     
  16. Topcat7

    Topcat7 Still Learning

    Magical Snap - 2016.06.20 09.50 - 216.jpg
    httpsbooks.google.com.aubooksisbn=1136787992.jpg

    End.
     
  17. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    TC... did you read the Forvm link provided by Ardy in post #7? Savoca has sold more than 250 of these fakes. The fabric is mostly the same. Some are reddish terra cotta, others yellowish, others darker. Some were manufactured with smooth backs, some with papyrus texturing. The figures are from a wide range of time. Some of the papyrus-imprinted pieces have matching papyrus impressions. That alone is damning.

    Screen Shot 2016-06-19 at 8.02.44 PM.jpg
    Screen Shot 2016-06-19 at 8.15.13 PM.jpg
    Screen Shot 2016-06-19 at 8.03.28 PM.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2016
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  18. Magnus Maximus

    Magnus Maximus Dulce et Decorum est....

    Wow, that's pretty bad.
     
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  19. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    Notice that the papyrus imprint on the second and third example shown above was made from the same imprinting device:

    SavocaFakeBullaeReverses_edited-1.jpg

    That same texturing device appears on many of their sold "bullae".
     
  20. zumbly

    zumbly Ha'ina 'ia mai ana ka puana

    Gee, that kind of 'seals' the deal, doesn't it.
     
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  21. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    [rimshot] :D
     
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