Searching for a Saint

As some of you know, I've been searching (on and off) for a nice $20 Saint Gaudens for some years now. I'm being pickier than most people (I think). The downside is that it is taking so long. The upside is that, hopefully, I get a really nice specimen for a fair price.

I'm hoping to go to some coin shows this year to look. My criteria are:

a) Problem-free
b) Slabbed
c) Common year (11-d, 14-d, 14-s, 15-s, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27)
- MAYBE 1923-d or 1928?
d) Good strike
e) Clean fields
f) MS64-ish (maybe MS65)
g) No copper/water spots

(now for the biggie...)

i) No wear "in the usual places"
obv: breast, torch, thighs
rev: head, beak, feather tips

Assuming that the price of gold doesn't go through the roof:

1) How much should I expect to pay for such a coin at a major show?
- I'd like to spend $1500-$1700
2) How difficult will it be to find such a coin?
- Are my expectations too high for a 64?

Here is a thread I started some time ago with Tips for Hunting $20 Saints

 

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Have you been monitoring Great Collections? You can really find some gems at great prices now and again when you catch someone sleeping on auction day

 

Doug, you have your criteria, just be patient and it will finally pop up before your unbelieving eyes one day when you least expect it. For 3 years I've been looking for 5 coins. I have my strict criteria and now I'm down to 2 coins. My itch is getting to the point I can't contain it but I must in order to get what I want.

 

One advantage to larger shows is it seems like *everyone* stocks Saints, just like Morgans, so you can expect to see a large number to choose from. I think your expectation for MS64 is only (probably) unrealistic in item e) - a well-struck Saint with no wear/rub spots and good color is going to be a bit baggy to limit itself to the grade. Your budget should do easily for MS64, and 65 if you're willing to add 10% max, if Heritage results are any indication (I don't expect you to pay an auction-level price for the example you choose).

 

Most likely you will find in MS64 condition either a 1924 or 1927.
These years are most common and therefore you can select from a huge number of graded coins.
These come nearly always with good eye appeal.
Select carefully a 64 plus coin from a reputable Dealer.

 

"I don't always grade accurately, but when I do, I use the ANA guidelines"

(insert funny meme of that Dos Equis beer guy here)

I think that it says that cabinet/stacking friction is still wear.

How do I tell the difference between cabinet/stacking friction and other types of wear?

 

I'm looking (slowly $$) for a $20 Saint Gaudens too (and not an expert here). But it seems OP is looking for a slabbed MS66 (biggie items) for MS64 price? Would that direct him to the non PCGS/NGC slabbed coins and looking for mis-low-graded coin ?

 

@Clawcoins, I would say that I'm looking for a correctly-graded MS64 ("technical grading"?). Most 64's that I see out there are not 64's according to what I read in the ANA Grading guidelines.

Does that translate into a market-graded MS66? Maybe. I hope not.

 

This is fairly easy if you look at enough SLABBED Saints. Start with MS-66's to learn what Full Mint Luster on the high points looks like. Once you learn what an original surface looks like (even some 66's are not 100% original w/no trace of friction) move down to the MS-65 range. Very many of the 65's will have "flattened," shiny color on the knee, and breast. This is "stacking rub." If that surface is dull, that is friction wear. This difference will may be hard to see at first without a mentor as the bright lighting at shows will reflect off the high points and mask the trace of wear (color) you'll be looking for. Florescent light takes all the glare off a coin and much of the plastic so the difference between shiny and dull pops out.

 

@Dougmeister

You'll need to go to a major gold dealer when they are not busy. Tell the sales person you are a finicky collector; yet you are going to do your best to buy a coin from him today and ask to see the coins in the grade you wish. If they have at least twenty examples the chances you will be able to find a TRUE UNC (no stacking/friction) among similar graded coins is about 10% for MS-64, 20% for MS-65. If you are lucky to find more than one you can pick the one with the fewest marks. Patience pays dividends as most dealers and TPGS's don't care about coins w/no loss of mint luster on the high points of Saints as long as they are "clean."

EDIT: I just read the ANA Grading Guide for Uncirculated Saints.

MINT STATE: "No Trace of Wear." GOOD LUCK! I will repeat my post above. Saints WITH NO TRACE OF WEAR do exist but you are going to be looking for a long time. I needed a MS-62 $20 Liberty (with no trace of wear) for a set about a decade ago and found one at the Heritage table after looking through about thirty coins.

 

A 24 or 27. In 64. I'd look on ha I take it you don't want a no motto as there's some very clean 08 no mottos out there in high grades

 

Wear and cabinet friction are not the same thing.

 

Actually they are the same thing. I am aware of at least one major dealer in the 1970's that started calling very slightly worn AU coins with virtually mark-free surfaces in his catalogue: Uncirculated with "cabinet friction."

As one of the knowledgeable Mods here has tried to drum into our heads - based on old timey grading standards - Unc = NO TRACE OF WEAR. Therefore, cabinet friction = friction wear + loss of original surface! As he likes to say, "wear is wear."

Now, today I looked up the ANA's grading standards for $20 Saints. The ANA has held fast that Uncirculated coins have NO TRACE OF WEAR. GOOD LUCK WITH THAT STANDARD. While I may agree with it and use it for my PERSONAL standard - that standard is totally IGNORED in the marketplace and it is not followed by ANY TPGS. IMO, over 60% of the coins slabbed as MS by the major grading services DO NOT MEET THIS OLD STANDARD.

Furthermore, a standard is not a standard (except on paper and in some minds) if it is ignored. AND IT IS IGNORED in the real world away from the "forum rats" such as myself.

 

Uncirculated means it never circulated. It's a fairly simple and straight forward definition. Just because a process mimics the look of a slightly circulated coin does not mean a coin circulated. And the fact that we can tell the difference between an au and an unc with cabinet friction only serves to prove this point

 

If you really want to know the difference between MS64 and MS66 gold, you should send an email to SEGS customer service ;-)

 

Sorry to disagree. Uncirculated means that the condition of the coin INDICATES that it did not circulate. I don't think anyone on CT will disagree with that. Do you?

Thus, the word Uncirculated can be misleading. IMO, Mint State defines an original coin much better without adding any "shades" of friction wear.

The ONLY difference between an AU and a coin with cabinet friction (that you PERSONALLY consider "Unc enough" for your tastes) is the amount of friction wear and loss of luster on its surface.

Now, I live in the real world. A large number of coins (especially in some series) that are considered Mint State in the marketplace ARE NOT. Every informed dealer/collector knows that too. Do you agree?

 

Negative to the first question bro. I disagree as we can tell the difference between cabinet friction and AU in all but the most severe of cases.

On the last question, I do agree. There are plenty of sliders that briefly circulated that the tpgs have adjudicated as mint state. That doesn't have a hill of beans to do with cabinet or bag friction imparted on a coin means it circulated. Where did it circulate, from one side of the bag or cabinet to the other side without passing through a single person hands through direct contact? That does not a circulated coin make my friend. Can you tell @bigmoney to grab her favorite cast iron pan and knock some sense into you please

 

I'm not telling BM that her second favorite poster is stirring up my blood pressure.

Now one more try for total agreement (As in this case I'm not flexible ).

If you have the same personal standard as I do and will agree that AU means "no trace of wear," will you agree that we detect wear as loss of original mint luster? In that case, how much loss of luster do you allow on a coin for it to be from cabinet friction and how much MORE loss of luster to you need to call it AU?

You see, this is the problem with commercial grading. We all (including TPGS graders) have our own amount of luster loss before we drop a coin to AU. This was never a problem with the Technical Grading System taught to beginners in SOME seminars BEFORE they are introduced to "market grading." For tech grading a Mint State coin has FULL LUSTER and no amount of friction no mater what caused it (as we were not there when it happened).

Cabinet Friction is a term that was "coined" by dealers to let them sell "sliders" with eye appeal to the those who did not know/or ignored the strict definition of Mint State: No trace of wear.

 

Here is a Saint that I can guarantee is UNC, so is her left knee/leg rub from cabinet friction or from stacking? .. btw; the obverse will easily grade MS66.