Help me understand this Trade Dollar

I'm glad you joined this thread @Mainebill You know these really well. My thoughts are much the same. The PL look tell me the die was worked on. With all the stuff going on with the coin, I can't put a percentage on mint made and post mint. It's for sure a mix of the two.
I bought it raw 20 something years ago and thought it was AU50 at best because of all the chatter. PCGS called it AU58 about 2 years back. I wanted it to go PL but understand why it came up short of that.
I want to add more but I'm too tired to think straight.

 

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I can see marks which go every which way , some straight and parallel like the ones under the eagle's chin , and those that are short and go every which way . Larry are any of the parallel lines raised ?
I'm thinking it's a PL coin that might have been cleaned and then scratched with something to hide it . Though since I don't have it in hand and can't tell if any of the straight lines are raised it's all conjecture at this point . I would like to know how those marks on the edge by star 7 got there as those do definitely look intentional . I do like the coin though .

 

I don't see any lines that look raised, so that would rule out die polish lines. Perhaps Larry @ldhair could check this later in the morning.

Chris

 

Good morning. I can't get to the box for a few days but I have a lot of images taken before PCGS graded it. Some are going to be really large.

 

Well scratch the rest of the images. They don't have the focus needed. I should have brought the coin home before starting this thread. I know the parallel lines on the obverse are raised. I'm looking at the ones above her right arm, the ones behind her neck and the ones to the right of her left arm. That's hard to say. I can't remember much about the reverse.
The rest of the marks are all over the place.

 

Curious coin. I'm guessing the "dark" I see in the fields is because the coin is PL or nearly so, right? I'd expect that "look" in digital imagery of a PL coin. It then becomes something where it's probably as important to examine the stars and lettering as the fields - the more of this that's postmint handling, the more you should be able to uncover evidence of the same scratching on the devices. The fact that most of it (aside the obvious vertically-oriented die polishing) stops short of the devices indicates somebody wiped it on their wool peacoat ( ), but don't forget a PL surface really magnifies the effect of even minor scratching.

I would certainly not kick this example out of my collection under any circumstances.

 

It looks like this coin was scraping against another coin for quite some time. I'd call it MS-60.

 

That's what I was thinking.

 

I'd still like to know how those marks above her head and star 7 , especially over star 7 got there . They seem to miss the devices quite a bit , and to me would be very hard to be made naturally . Thence someone deliberately for whatever reason put them on . We all know some stupid things done to coins that make no sense . Then there's those lines above her arms and hair that are straight and parallel but still don't look like polish lines . Quite the coin all right .

 

What is neat for collectors of Trade dollars is this is a Type 2M Obverse , which has no doubling of the top right side of the ribbon , but has a small protrusion on the index finger holding the ribbon . Larry's pic is so clear yo can see the small protrusion on the index finger with the pic enlarged . The reverse is a 2L .

 

NOTE: THIS IS NOT A 2M obverse for the reasons you have stated above!! They are characteristics of the Type 2 obverse. The 2M hub has no protrusion and doubled ribbon.

The Obverse is Type 2 (old Type 2) and the reverse is 2L (old type 2 w/no berry). Since it has been pointed out by Coin World Editors and Trade dollar specialists that there was no reason to change the "old" Type 2 reverse to 2L, sometime in the future the LSCC will probably revert back to the standard Type 2 reverse. That gives us reverses of:

Type #1 (berry)
Type #2M (protruding feathers)
Type #2 (smooth feathers as on OP's coin)
Type # unassigned as yet - the newly published "split-tail" hub on 1877-S coins only

So far I have found two 1877-S coins with the new hub. One graded 62 and one raw. I suspect that MS-64 will be the highest graded "Split-Tail" when it is discovered in a collection.

 

You're right , I thought maybe I wrote it down wrong , but after looking at it again my notes are correct , though I transfixed the Letters , my bad . Good job insider . Though I do have the same type coin but in 53 . So no 2L reverse . just when I thought I had this new lettering figured out .

 

I think I have a '77-S with the split tailed tail , better go to the bank and check .

 

Go for it and good luck!

 

So the split tail was only on the '77-S ?

 

The big images help a lot. I see some mint made polish lines, mainly adjacent to the large devices, and a lot of post mint "scritchiness" in the fields esp on the obv, but not in the protected areas such as around the date and the stars. Interesting that there aren't any marks from edge reeding of other coins; it's almost like it was tossed around in a sack of gravel. I still think it's a cool coin.

 

I agree. That's my impression as well. The coin was simply cleaned and chattered up somehow to hide it. The chatter is excessive. It looks like the person who touched it up knew what they were doing, and judging from other opinions in here it seems market acceptable. To me though it's deceptive and doctored looking

 

You're right and I like ToughCoins' analysis. Never would have thought of that. At first I thought the chatter was natural but there's too much of it and some of it, if this is possible to discern, begins to appear intentional. There is some die work as has been pointed out.

 

So far YES, in twenty years of searching. I didn't think anyone knew about these until I read an article in Numismatic News about them.

 

No split tailed '77-S for me , unless I have one somewhere I don't know about .