Antoninus Pius with eagle silver tetradrachm?

Hi Rome fans, this coin is a riddle for me. I am sure someone can provide a clue. There is nothing similar in wildwinds or the forumancientcoins, and I can distinctly read the ΑΝΤΩΝΕΙΝΟΣ on the obverse. A provincial mint of course. Is CCB a mint mark or year? The image came out goldish but it is totally silver colored.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

It's Caracalla.

 

It doesn't look official - the style and fabric are weird. Maybe imitative?

Edit: I just looked through a bunch of Caracalla tets of Antioch, and the styles exhibit quite a bit of variance, so maybe it's within tolerance on style. What is the weight?

It's CEB under the bust, short for CEBASTOS, the Greek version of Augustus.

 

Caracalla for sure, but, like JA, it just looks off or not right. But I must caveat this by saying I am no expert at Tets from Antioch.

 

Thanks, btw I just found and identified two Emperor Nero Antioch mint tetradrachms (RPC4182) with eagles on the reverse, which look very authentic, unlike the one in question, and I will get back to you on the weight, as I have just ordered a weight scale through amazon.

 

Like these:
http://cngcoins.com/Search.aspx?PAG...R_TYPE_ID_2=1&SEARCH_IN_CONTAINER_TYPE_ID_4=1

You're going to see a variation of styles and weight range anywhere from low 12g to mid 14g.

 

I'm not calling it inauthentic. Syrian tets pose quite a few challenges when it comes to style. Depending on the period, the styles can be quite homogeneous, or all over the map. There are also questions as to whether certain varieties should be assigned to the same mint. I will consult Prieur tomorrow and get back to you.

 

The book on these is by Michel and Karen Prier, "The Syro-Phoenician Tetradrachms and their Fractions". They are French, but the book is in English. It is a complete type corpus listing and illustrating 1743 types. I recommend it to anyone who buys more than one tetradrachm from Syria. Your mintmark is a cornucopiae and star, from Antioch, types 241-245, of which yours is type 244, page 43. It is his very last issue, 215-217, and his illustrated example is very much like yours, which is surely genuine.

 

Thanks for all of your expert opinions, everyone. It is indeed the Caracalla from Antioch. His curly beard I remember too. What beats me is why the legend on the coin includes Antoninus.

 

That was his name - Marcus Aurelius Antoninus - which was adopted when his father became emperor and wanted to associate his family with that of the Antonine dynasty. Caracalla was his nickname.

Here's a typical denarius of Caracalla. You'll see the legend reads ANTONINVS PIVS AVG.

 

And don't forget the other ANTONINVS PIVS that we know as Elagabalus, now he was a real sweet boy. Look him up when there are no children around. You get to know their portraits.

 

I would agree the coin looks good. These came a little wonky looking, (precise numismatic term), and the light corrosion doesn't help the look either. But sure looks right to me.

 

Maybe we should make the point that several names of emperors as used by collectors and historians were not used by or acceptable to the person in question. Caligula was Gaius Caesar, Marcus Aurelius was the first two names but the one that shows on most coins is also Antoninus (the family name). The fact that we have three emperors who used Antoninus Pius as a name is something we just have to learn but, of the three, the one who did not have legends reading Antoninus Pius was the one we call by that name. He was usually styles Antoninus Aug(ustus) Pius.
I believe it is correct that you will not be executed for errors of this type anymore but I strongly suggest time travelers not use the word Caracalla in his presence.

 

Actually, if you go onto Wildwinds to Antoninus Pius, search using CTRL +F enter the search criteria as ANTONINVS PIVS you will find a number of coins that have that within the legend. It is very confusing for newbies. AP is easy to recognise from the portrait but there are some coins, whether from wear or style, that can make it difficult to distinguish between Caracalla and Elagabalus.

 

Found a few more Caracallas in my stash, one Laodikea ad Mare mint with one star, one Berytus, Phoenicia mint, ("prow between legs") and this one below......has an unusual mint mark between the eagle's legs, it almost looks like a stick figure with four beads around it (sorry for the twisted photo of the reverse). Any ideas on the mint?

 

looks like a figure between stars, so Jupiter Heliopolitanus, from Akke Ptolemais.

 

I tried that and found no coins but I did find several errors where the listing was wrong and did not match the photo. For example:
http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/sear5/s4103.html
The coin clearly has the AVG but the lister chose not to read it. Wildwinds is a great resource but it is based on seller listings which can be less than accurate.
Antoninus Pius Denarius. ANTONINVS PIVS P P TRP COS III, laureate head right / PROVIDENTIAE DEORVM, winged thunderbolt. RSC 681

Can you show a photo of an Antoninus Pius without the AVG? Some of his early coins had just Antoninus without AVG or Pius but when both were present, the ones I have seen showed AVG first.

 

Whilst my statement was correct, if you search AP for ANTONINVS PIVS you will find several coins, Doug is absolutely correct in that they appear to be errors in each case. I will write to Dane and point this out.

The moral of the story is "Always listen to your Uncle Doug, and ignore Auntie Pish".

 

Update: Message from Dane:

Many thanks for the info. Could you please tell the
people on cointalk (I don't think I'm a member of that
- I have 6 pages of passwords etc for various forums
and that's enough, I think, haha) that I have corrected
ALL the "ANTONINVS PIVS.." legends on the wildwinds
Antoninus Pius page and also all the .txt files
associated with the coins with the errors.
You can also mention that the errors came from the
descriptions written by such eminent auction houses as
CNG, Triton, H&B and Helios (the latter being the one
who hardly ever had any errors, shame the company does
not exist any more).

best wishes and thanks again, always happy to hear
about such errors
Dane

 

A most excellent discussion. Yous guys Rock.