Gryphon and Chelys or Griffin and Lyre

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by dougsmit, May 8, 2016.

  1. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    The Greek coin that followed me home from the show is this silver diobol (reduced standard 1.04g, 10mm) from Teos in Ionia, 320-294 BC. Your choice of the title for this thread depends on how much you like to translate Greek words. I've always been a fan of Gryphon for the beast. Lyre is a generic term for more than one stringed instrument. Today we might offend someone by calling their Viola a Violin but few now are that heavily into lyre correctness. The Chelys, as expected from the name, was made from the shell of a turtle as the sound chamber seen here as the round part at the bottom. Instruments made with wood for the chamber would be something else (I believe there were more than one style but I am not a musician).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teos
    0fd3306.jpg
    I almost did not buy the coin due to the poor centering but the really good metal and pleasing contrast won me over. I regret the loss of the back end of the Gryphon but I have the whole outreached paw which often gets clipped. More regretted is the loss of all but a trace of the city name THI (of the Teans) at reverse top. The clear legend "Alypion" is the magistrate name. There are others available on similar coins of this type. I went to the show wanting more Greek but ended up buying Roman simply because the Greeks available were either too expensive for my tastes or things insufficiently different from things I have to make me want to buy minor type differences. I find myself buying more at shows according to what I see and like while mail order makes me search a hundred examples of a wanted type. I had no idea I wanted a small silver of Teos but I do like the coin. Besides, I feel I need to buy a critter coin so Steve and the rest of you can show others.
     
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  3. Mat

    Mat Ancient Coincoholic

    Wonderful coin Doug, I like the look most of all.
     
  4. randygeki

    randygeki Coin Collector

    It would be great if it was centered better but its still a killer coin.
     
  5. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    I too succumbed to one of these coins at CICF :D

    Apparently Victor England had a bag full and various dealers were buying piles of them (not sure if that was during CICF or at an earlier show). I picked through a dozen at one dealer's table and chose the one with the best obverse which, unfortunately, does not have a good reverse.

    TeosGriffinDiobol-RT.jpg
    IONIA, Teos
    AR diobol (reduced standard), 10 mm, 0.98 gm
    Obv: seated griffin right, paw raised
    Rev: lyre, THI, magistrate’s name
     
  6. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    Thrace, Abdera.jpg
    THRACE, ABDERA
    Tetrobol
    OBVERSE: Griffin springing left
    REVERSE: Magistrate's name around linear border, within which head of Hermes l., caduceus before; all in incuse square
    Struck at Abdera 411-385 BC
    2.780g, 15mm
    May 279
     
  7. John Anthony

    John Anthony Ultracrepidarian

    I like both examples of the type very much - getting that much detail from a 10mm coin is always great, never mind the off-center strikes. The Teosians were evidently quite fond of the their griffins. And music. And drinking.

    teos 6.jpg
     
  8. zumbly

    zumbly Ha'ina 'ia mai ana ka puana

    The excellent metal was also the first thing that struck me when I looked at the picture. Nice!
     
  9. Theodosius

    Theodosius Fine Style Seeker

    I have this Adbera Stater with a Gryphon:

    Abdera Stater 1.jpg
    Thrace, Abdera, AR Stater, c.336-311 BC, Dionysados as Magistrate

    John
     
  10. Valentinian

    Valentinian Well-Known Member

    Here is a candidate for the smallest griffin:

    IoniaTeosHemiO.JPG IoniaTeosHemiR.jpg
    Ionia, Teos, c. 478-449 BC.
    7 mm. 0.33 grams.
    Sear Greek -- (as 3512, but much smaller)
    SNG Copenhagen Ionia, Teos, 1442 has this design but is larger
    von Aulock 2258, 2259 have this design but are much larger
    DeCallatay Recueil Quantitatif A&C type 227 page 192 notes an academic study with 23 pieces of this size, calling it a tetartemorion.
     
  11. zumbly

    zumbly Ha'ina 'ia mai ana ka puana

    My little tetartemorion from Teos shows only the griffin head, but at 4.7mm, I'd be surprised if a whole griffin could have fit. Valentinian's coin at 7mm is larger, but still tiny enough to make the fact that it shows the entire beast quite remarkable.

    upload_2016-5-9_13-13-43.png
    IONIA, Teos
    Circa 540-478 BC
    AR Tetartemorion
    0.14g, 4.7mm
    cf. CNG 63, lot 506

    Shot for persepective next to a grain of rice:
    upload_2016-5-9_13-16-49.png
     
  12. ancientone

    ancientone Well-Known Member

    This is a previously owned coin of Chios from the time of Augustus to 150AD. Sorry for the poor quality pics.

    chios.jpg
    Ionia, Island of Chios. Pseudo-autonomous AE14
    Dichalkon, Civic Coinage of Chios, Ionia.
    Reign of Augustus - 150 AD
    Obverse: XI-W-N, Sphinx left, forepaw raised.
    Reverse: DIXA-LKON, amphora, dotted border.
    14mm and 1.8gms
    BMC Ionia 114
     
  13. Mikey Zee

    Mikey Zee Delenda Est Carthago

    That would've sold me too!!

    Love the posts!! It's hard to resist a "monster'......
     
  14. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    Considering the standard in Teos was reduced to the point that a diobol was only 1.0g, I'd really suspect Valentinian's coin is nowhere near a tetartemorion. Zumby's would be that making the 3.3g monster at least a hemiobol assuming we only are doing half/double fractions. I could see it being even a smallish obol butwe need a thorough study of thousands of coins it someone is to rule out assumptions based on errors imported from other systems. We tend to force all these coins into words from Athens.
     
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  15. Valentinian

    Valentinian Well-Known Member

    Doug is right that if a diobol is about 1 gram, my Teos coin (above), at 0.33 grams, could not be a tetartemorion (1/4 obol).

    DeCallatay (citing Balcer, SNR 47, for my Teos type in various sizes) has the modal weight of 47 staters (Sear 4576-7) at 11.9-11.99 grams and 29 "trihemiobols" at 1.30 - 1.39 grams. So, if the stater is a didrachm the drachm would be c. 5.97 grams and an obol c. 0.99 grams (This is heavier than an obol at Athens) and a trihemiobol 1.48 grams, heavier than the observed mode. Of course, none of these calculations allow for a per-coin seignorage (the charge for turning metal into coins) which would cause the smaller denominations to be lighter than their nominal fraction.

    The Balcer die-study catalog cites (only) one drachm at 5.28 grams and (only) one 2.60-grams coin he calls a triobol (= hemidrachm), which would make the obol about 0.87 grams. So, Teos in this time period did not use drachms as a major part of their system.

    As Doug said, "We tend to force all these coins into words from Athens." Do we know that Teos used "drachms" and "obols" (6 obols to a drachm) like Athens?

    If so, I think the original 1 gram coin is an obol (not a diobol) on the heavy standard used at Teos.

    My coin, of 0.33 grams, does not fit well using the most common Greek fractions. Balcer finds 4 pieces c. 0.30 grams like mine and calls them "tritemoria" (3 times 1/4 obol). That's an odd denomination!

    I think the denominations of the smallest coins from cities other than Athens are not really certain. Maybe they are well-known in some places, but not all. The reference works that named them are old and were, at the time, focused on the bigger denominations. Now that we have so many more small coins to study, it might be time to look at them again. Balcer seems to think Teos did not issue many obols (he finds 4 coins c. 1.1 grams), but did issue lots of "trihemiobols" at about 1.35 grams. That seems odd.

    I can't see striking 12 hemiobols from the same amount of silver as one drachm -- there must be some charge for the extra work in striking 12 coins instead of one and that charge, perhaps paid by striking 13 or 14 from the right amount of silver, should reduce the average weights.

    Given that all these denominations look quite similar (they have the same type, but different sizes, or, more importantly, weights), I can't see how the ancient man in the street (or dark tavern) could tell the small ones apart reliably. This interests me and I will look into it.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2016
  16. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    Things like this make you appreciate the little coins that were marked with their denomination.
    Syracuse hemilitron (six dots)
    g00410bb2035.jpg

    Syracuse hexas (2 dots)
    g00420bb0595.jpg

    Kolophon hemiobol HM ligate
    g01570bb2254.jpg

    Kolophon tetartemorion TE reversed
    g01573bb2643.jpg

    Kolopon tetartmorion TE (not reversed)
    g01578bb2644.jpg
    I wonder if this Kolophon variation was issued in a locust year???
    g01580bb0783.jpg
     
  17. stevex6

    stevex6 Random Mayhem

    Wow, that OP-gryphon has fantastic eye-appeal (congrats Mentor)

    I have a couple of AR Ionia Teos examples ...

    griffin b.jpg griffin a.jpg

    Ionia Teos Gryphon.jpg


    Plus, I have a few more Lyre & Gryphon examples from other places ...

    hermes.jpg

    griffin & horse.jpg

    Thrace Abdera Gryphon.jpg L Papi.jpg pan & griffin.jpg Tessera Egypt Serapis and Griffin.jpg Marcus Griffin b.jpg

    ... fantastic coins, gang (gryphons => griffins => ROCK!!)

     
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