CILICIA, Tarsos AR Stater of the provincial governor (Satrap) Datames

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Collect89, Apr 25, 2016.

  1. Collect89

    Collect89 Coin Collector

    Click the photo-
    Slab on photo-1.jpg Slab on photo-2.jpg
    CILICIA, Tarsos
    AR Stater of Datames
    378 – 372 B.C.

    10.21 grams, 22 mm
    Obv: Facing Female bust (Arethusa?)
    Rev: Helmeted head Right (Ares?)
    with Aramaic legend to right.
    Grade: near VF or better with good
    strike & toning on original rough
    surfaces. 15% off-center strike
    almost obscures Aramaic letters.
    Other: SNG Levante 78, BMC 29. Datames ruled 385 BC – killed 362 BC was a general and satrap (provincial governor) like his father before him. ex CNG electronic auction Feb 2, 2000. Eye Appealing Investments April 2016.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2016
  2. Avatar

    Guest User Guest



    to hide this ad.
  3. Collect89

    Collect89 Coin Collector

    This coin spoke to me at the Hartford coin show this weekend. I thought that the price was very good. Even with the rough surfaces, the coin has a nice eye appeal with the facing portrait & old attractive toning.

    This new purchase is similar to Race Bannon’s coin. The difference is that the male head faces left on Race Bannon’s coin & the male head is facing to the right on my new coin. I hope that Race posts his coin here but just in case he misses this thread, his coin is at post #13 here: https://www.cointalk.com/threads/fu...ate-of-tarsus-in-cilicia.277074/#post-2390656

    Dig this- My new coin is the same coin depicted on Wildwind’s SNGLev 78.2. http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/greece/cilicia/satraps/datames/t.html
    Apparently my coin was purchased from CNG in 2000 and then sometime later it was slabbed at NGC.

    Got a facing female bust or something from Cilicia? Please post ‘em if you got ‘em.

    Map 3 Edited.jpg
     
  4. Jwt708

    Jwt708 Well-Known Member

    Cool score and nice map. I have nothing to share. I really like that reverse.
     
    Collect89 likes this.
  5. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    FTFY:

    C89-crackout.jpg
    (couldn't do much about the parts obscured by prongs)

    Looks like a nice coin!
     
  6. Collect89

    Collect89 Coin Collector

    OMG you cracked my coin out of the holder. :woot:

    Thank you very much TIF.:)

    There is also a photo (un-slabbed) on the NGC Website under certification # 3762392-003. I was hoping to determine when it got slabbed but that info wasn't immediately clear when I visited NGCCOIN.com
     
    GregH likes this.
  7. John Anthony

    John Anthony Ultracrepidarian

    Bravo, great find! I find these types fascinating for some indeterminate reason, and I recently stumbled across an obol of the same type. I only have this poor image of it until it arrives, but perhaps the poor image is what left it ignored. Yes, it's rough, but not so rough when you learn this is a 9mm coin, 0.65g...

    obol3.jpg
     
  8. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    I like mine even if it has a test cut. The countermark does flatten a bit of obverse hair and clip a bit of legend but, thankfully, the coin is completely free of the dreaded plastic disease. It came from CNA XV (1991 - before there was a CNG) well under estimate probably because of the cut. I wanted it because of the countermark. It still resides in my favorites list.
    http://www.forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/f47.html

    g01890b00518lg.JPG


    My hemi-obol or 1/24 stater has about as wide a flan as you are going to get out 0.33g of silver.
    g01895bb3153.jpg
     
  9. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    I'd take that hemiobol in a heartbeat! For such a large flan (relative to weight), the devices struck up amazingly deep!
     
  10. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    Is the obverse head female? I wondered if switching the Aphrodite for Ares might have been matched by placing Apollo on obverse? G&N said female but I could be convinced either way with that face.
    https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=1943469
    There is one equally gender-ambiguous even smaller:
    https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=2344097
    The seller of the tetartemorion quoted only my coin and Ares obols so I have to consider their opinion just copying rather than based on research.
     
    Collect89 and Paul M. like this.
  11. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    The facing portrait's clothing makes me think it is a male. Have you ever seen a center-clasped garment on a facing female portrait? I don't recall seeing that, but it is seen on facing Sol, for instance (Roman, but it illustrates the point). Better examples: facing busts of Apollo on coins of Rhodes. Looks like he's wearing a Boy Scout kerchief.
     
  12. John Anthony

    John Anthony Ultracrepidarian

    That stater has the best of all worlds: it's a wonderful coin to start, the test cut demonstrates its use in commerce, and the mark demonstrates that it was re-tariffed, not to mention being a very interesting mark. And - none of the elements significantly interfere with each other. I can see why it makes your favorites.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2016
  13. stevex6

    stevex6 Random Mayhem

    Mmmmm, Cilicia ...

    C89 => congrats on that awesome OP-score!!

    I have included a handful of my random Cilicia examples ...

    Cilicia Tarsos countermark.jpg cilica.jpg Cilicia Aigeai Tyche & Horse.jpg Cilicia Obol Eagle on Lion.jpg Cilicia Tarsos Club.jpg
     
  14. Cyrrhus

    Cyrrhus Well-Known Member

    I love all these Satrap coins from Cilicia, there are so many different types.
    Also the one with the horse galloping is very nice...I was offered 3 of these but too much cost wise so I skipped.
    I see them now also at Roma there new auction.
     
  15. RaceBannon

    RaceBannon Member

    Great coin Collect! Here's my example.

    I suspect mine has been cleaned at some point. I'm also not sure about some parts of the attribution (water nymph of Syracuse?) as they came from the seller.

    Persian Empire; Cilicia Tarsus; BC 380-374
    AR Stater, 23mm/10.3g
    OBV: Head of Arethusa, Patron naiad (water nymph) of Syracuse, facing slightly left wearing single pendant earrings and necklace
    REV: Bearded head Left of Pharnabazos (or Ares), Persian military commander wearing crested helmet with raised ear flap.
    (Price 2949)

    Tarsus Stater Obv.JPG Tarsus Stater Rev.JPG
     
    Jwt708, Johndakerftw, Orfew and 6 others like this.
  16. John Anthony

    John Anthony Ultracrepidarian

    Well my little obol arrived today, and it's a positive gem - I love it! Since the charm of tiny silver is tininess, I'm going to post a pic like this for now...

    obol hand 6.jpg
     
  17. Mikey Zee

    Mikey Zee Delenda Est Carthago

    Lovely coin @Collect89 !! I'd welcome it into my collection any day...

    Terrific posts Everyone!!!

    Amazing details on such tiny coins....
     
  18. John Anthony

    John Anthony Ultracrepidarian

    So, looking a bit deeper into the attribution of these types, the staters have the names of one of two satraps: Datames or Pharnabazos. Datames (Aramaic TRDMW) is clearly spelled out on Doug's and Race's coins.

    On the OP coin, the inscription is off-flan, but we know it's Datames, because the other option is Pharnabazos, and his name is inscribed behind the right-facing bust types. There is no lettering behind the OP bust, therefore it must be Datames. (Or so I've gathered from my poking around the webs - someone correct me if I'm wrong!)

    The obol is problematic. It came to me assigned to Pharnabazos, but I can't make out the letters (if they are letters) in front of the bust - they are too clipped. Also, looking through as many of these as I can find (which isn't many), it would appear that some of the obols have letters, others none. I see many attributed to the time of Datames and/or Pharnabazos.
     
    Ancientnoob and Jwt708 like this.
  19. Jwt708

    Jwt708 Well-Known Member

    Oh, well that clears it up.
     
  20. John Anthony

    John Anthony Ultracrepidarian

    I'm glad you feel cleared up. Unfortunately, when you look into Datames and Pharnabazos, you may feel muddy again. It's not always clear who these men were and what they accomplished or even where they governed. From Historia XLVII/1 (1998)...

    "Datames was an extraordinary Persian leader whose political and military abilities were such that Greek and Roman writers preserved many of his achievements and stratagems. Yet the satrapy over which Datames ruled remains a puzzle. There are multiple reasons for this. The literary evidence appears to be contradictory: Diodorus reported Cappadocia; Nepos, Cilicia. Even the unusual coins struck under Datames' authority in Cilicia do not constitute conclusive evidence that this was his official satrapy. It is a fact that prior to Datames other Persian generals whose satrapies were located elsewhere were given royal sanction to issue coins under their own names at the Cilician mints while they commanded expeditions in the eastern Mediterranean which drew heavily on Cilicia for food and military supplies."

    This quote comes from J. Daniel Bing's Datames and Mazaeus: The Iconography of Revolt and Restoration in Cilicia. The author's thesis, however (which he argues convincingly in my opinion), is that Datames was in fact governor of Cilicia.
     
    RaceBannon and Jwt708 like this.
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page