Controllers of the Numismatic Hobby

1. The coin dealers and coin graders control this whole hobby. It is not about the customer the coin collector it is about fat profits for the dealers and graders. The coin graders such as NGC cater to the dealers thus special labels etc. and those are just what you can see. I’m sure the grading times and grades protect dealer interest as well. The collector’s wallet is the prize for them. I’ve been a serious collector for almost ten years now and I’ve seen this play out over and over. Not many coin books speak to this fact. One that does is Eric Jordan’s “Modern Commemorative Coins” great book and honest and open in an industry that is anything but those two things. I will be moving away from collecting graded coins and trusting NGC to be objective, they are all about the dealers. Bullion from a reputable seller such as APMEX has much less risk, and buying more non US coins at that. The industry has probably always been corrupt and the grading companies have done very little if anything to change that. I’ve lost all respect for NGC’s Credibility as to neutrality between collector and dealer. It’s the later they cater too at the expense of the former. Their view of the collector is that of an endless supply of suckers to be plucked.
   

 

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The only reason anyone, anywhere, can "control" something is because those controlled have surrendered their self-determination and are allowing it.

Me, I don't subscribe to the notion that anyone can tell me what to think.

 

You're pretty close.

The fact of the matter is that Third Party Grading companies were created "for" coin dealers "by" coin dealers.

Coin Buyers MUST do their homework and NOT allow themselves to believe such things as "investment potential" and by all means, leave the emotion out of your coin purchases!

If people REALLY understood that very few coins actually appreciate in value, then a lot less folks would be disappointed when it came time to sell their treasures.

The possibility of making huge sums of money is very real, BUT, you have to be able to swim with the other sharks in order to make it a reality for yourself.

 

It may be worse than that: More like "fast, easy, and fun."

This phenomenon has increased over the decades, and is setting up many a young person for some serious disappointment when they find out that they aren't rock stars, or the bright, shiny center-of-the-universe their parents and advertising told them they were. Luckily, there are enough young people who are quick studies of life and figure these things out before they get too old...

As for the OP: The negativity about dealers needs to be qualified a little perhaps. Let's remember that it is dealers that "move" pretty much all the coins around, and thanks to their self-interest, they get these coins before our eyes for consideration. Without dealers, there would certainly be fewer coins out there for consideration. And without them, the value of all of our coins would probably disappear. ...Hey, maybe that wouldn't be such a bad thing, huh?

 

When these type of threads come up my only thought is if one can't see the current why are they in the water? It is what it is and you can't change it so why go against the current instead of finding ways to ride it.

 

Haha lee. We both posted water analogies at the same time

 

I'll bet that you occasionally get really nice raw stuff which languishes in inventory because there aren't enough people left out there who can evaluate it accurately and pay you what it's worth.

It's my belief that the enormous reach of the Internet puts those of us with enough ambition to leverage it into a position to wrest some of that control back from the TPG's, and empower individual collectors to make those decisions on their own. I do not deny the good that the TPG system has done the hobby over the last few decades (nor the ongoing need for them as authenticators), but in a world where information can be disseminated at light speed, and anyone with a couple hundred bucks and some elbow grease can create professional-level, gradable coin images, the slab is no longer as necessary as it once was. Numismatics no longer exists in the near-vacuum it once did.

There will always be those who want to be spoon-fed. But there will also always be those who prefer doing for themselves, and we now live in an environment where they can readily acquire the skills they need if we provide them the necessary teaching. I would like to believe that - and am working towards the day when - raw coins can make a comeback.

I wholeheartedly disagree with that level of pessimism. Don't just fight the current; help me build the breakwater to divert it.

 

I never surrendered to the TPGs because I've never agreed with them, never trusted them, hated what they did to the hobby, never used them, preferred to hold my coins in my own hand and enjoy their beauty without looking at them thru plastic. I have broken out and freed more coins from those plastic prisons than most people have in their collections. I'm just an old fashioned coin collector and I really don't care what the TPGs have to say about MY coins. Therefore I agree with your sentiments and say I'm glad to see you join the movement to discard TPGs in the trash bin of historical mistakes in our hobby.

 

All so, so true. You really envision the possibilities in this post.
Preach it, brother!

 

Look at the legend under my username here.

Of what use, what benefit, are the nearly 100,000 1881-S Morgans in PCGS MS64 slabs? The answer should be clear.

Free the Cartwheels.

 

I knew you would disagree dave but as I see it, Pandoras box was fully opened in 1986

 

And, like the original Pandora's Box, you can't close it again. What you can do, though, is minimize the damage caused by the demons thereby released.

 

Yes, the answer is clear. Most people who call themselves collectors don't know how to grade.

As for the OP, his tirade sounds like sour grapes to me.

Chris

 

Meh, I'm not hopping on this band wagon. If the premium coins were not graded in a TPG slab do you people really think the dealers would err on the side of conservative grading and give the customer a break?! You're dreaming!!

Not to mention that China has been producing higher quality fakes for years. Not just rare pieces. They produce common Washington quarters and everything else you can imagine. If we expected every collector to put in the time it takes to become experts on authenticity, much less grading, there'd be even less people interested in the hobby.
The cost of the grading usually doesn't factor in to the price so why would anybody complain about a third party's opinion, uninvolved with the sale.

"Oh, wow, here's an unslabbed MS-67 Morgan dollar that's made it through 130 years in perfect original condition, (as a new collector grabs the thing with his thumb across the surface.) Oh shucks, that one's ruined, but he'll know better next time...."
C'mon man! The benefits far out-weight the detriment. To make this argument is being very simple minded.

 

Wow, somehow forgot to mention that all collectors aren't going to live forever either. So the recently widowed Miss " I inherited a massive collection" is better off having a pile of raw coins to deal with that may be worth 5 or 6 figures and going off to sell them blind? That always turns out well for the poor old lady.

 

Fat profits are only realized because someone was willing to purchase something. Who's to blame for that?
Yeah, collecting was really fun when you could go through your dads pocket and find a 1914-D Lincoln, or a 1932-s quarter.
I remember discovering a collector who sold his extras; I was fascinated to hold a large cent in my hand for the first time. Dad never had one of those in his pocket. I bought a lot of coins from this man, and he introduced me to Stacks mail bid. My first 'more than I could afford' purchase was a chain cent for my type set. I had worked all summer and saved every last cent to buy one. Everything was all there. Completely readable.. and then some. If I bought that coin today it would be 6K +-. And, I would have to buy it from a dealer because I don't have the time nor the venue to hope one falls into my lap. And I certainly would not want to buy it raw, although I'm very comfortable with my ability to grade. I have seen too many fakes lately to not put some faith in a TPG.
And if I am willing to pay a dealers asking price it does not make one iota of difference how much profit he is making. I do not care if he makes 1000% profit selling me a coin as long as I am happy with the grade to cost.
If I find a $100 dollar bill on the street, although I would make a good profit selling it for $50, I'm not willing to take less than $100 for it, I don't care whose feeling I hurt.

 

No one controls the coin hobby. There are some that try to control collecting for profit. A hobby is something that is a unstressfull untaxing endeavor and when it becomes anything but that, it isn't a hobby anymore.

 

To the OP: This post seems at odds with your complaints to TIF's coin show write up.

I don't like slabs either.