So I guess the toolers and smoothers have won?

I still dabble! Tucson in early February for the BIG SHOW is must every year.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

So this viewpoint raises an interesting question: what exactly is the definition of "original coin's surface?"

Strictly speaking, the "original coin's surface" was bright, shiny copper or bronze, devoid of any patina since the latter would not have been present when the coin was originally struck.

So, for example, electrolytic removal of all of this coin's debris down to the original metal would NOT be tooling or smoothing (unless you have a different definition of "original coin's surface"). However, most collectors of ancients would agree that removal of an AEs patina is an unacceptable modification of the coin.

I doubt there is a black-and-white answer to my question, which is why Valentinian's elegant response is so valuable to this topic.

 

In my book, put simply,
'Cleaning' to reveal what is left of the coin IS acceptable, (to me) but 'Tooling' to enhance what is found (by giving the letters or images more prominence, or to reduce the effects of 'wear') is not acceptable, (again, to me).

 

The incredibly inept tooler of this coin had no idea what it was or how rare it is. It might of helped. One other example in BM.

 

Give the tooler an "E" for effort?

 

Here is one the tooler didn't know anything about what the reverse was suppose to look like. Notice the dutch door effect and the fake sand
patina:

 

WOW on the empty envelope and substituting coins!

 

ahahaha, wow ancientone => man, that example is so bad that it's actually kinda cool (he should have gone for broke and carved them playin' poker, or perhaps arm-wrestling!!)



... great topic, fellas (very interesting)

yah, but I still must admit that I'm a big fan of coins which still have some random crusties on 'em, or especially when they have that sweet silver crystalization goin' on ... it gives them a bit of character, and keeps them honest

=> but that's just me ... I guess an actual "gem" is the ultimate goal,eh? (but sadly, those gems are usually far beyond my coin-budget)

 

Looks like you gave a pretty good answer to your own question.

 

While looking through the auction when it was first listed. I saw that coin and it looked odd. Then I read the description and thought.....why the hell is CNG putting this in its' auction? I expect this from Lanz, EBay or some other boiler room operation.

I won't buy anything that is tooled or looks tooled or has been smoothed to any large degree. I largely avoid bronzes because so many are smoothed or tooled. To see this done with silver and gold is disappointing. I have seen repair work done on silver that is undetectable without having seen a previous photo of the coin. And that was almost a decade ago. I can only imagine they have gotten better at it.

The result is that I now buy even more carefully. With so many coins out there, I find no need to buy things that are questionable. Which is why I find a long pedigree to be pretty good protection against shenanigans.

And yes, Salem of Athena (formerly HolyLand) does like to sand patinate. I hate it.

 

Heh. Looks more like Cleopatra to my eye. And why not... a Rome mint Cleopatra as would be even more rare and desirable than Zenobia!

 

I have heard it all now.....
removing surface deposits and dirt is also to be called smoothing is it? what absolute nonsense!!! Thats called cleaning.
After I have been to the lavatory, I do not smooth my hands......I clean them.
smoothing is where the actual metal surface of the coin in the fields is smoothed to hide pitting and corrosion, certainly not the removal of surface dirt encrusted over many years of being in the ground. If the patina is removed, this is aggressive cleaning, not smoothing.

 

Hey-hey-hey, YOC-meister ... easy, big fella!!

Dude => it is way more cool to stay calm while the rest of the folks are losing it!!





... just jokes ...

=> feel free to lose it!! (sometimes it feels good, eh?)

 

True Steve......

 

Removing surface deposits is cleaning. Grooming them, polishing them selectively or trimming them to enhance their enhancement of weak details are not quite the same thing as removing everything or top layers - generally down to, for example, where the dirt stops and the patina starts. Even this does not provide a 'complete' definition of terms. I once knew a dealer who showed me a handful of coins from his pocket. He had a few quarters, dimes, nickels and a billon tetradrachm of Uranius Antoninus. The coin was a bit rough from a mix of corrosion and deposits. He said it looked a lot better than it did six months earlier when he started carrying it. He was trading a VF with surface issues for a F with better eye appeal. Thirty years ago, that made more sense than it would to most people today. I never saw the finished product. I really see nothing wrong with what he was doing. At least he wasn't recutting it into a Saturninus.

 

A Southern coin dealer I knew closely in the 1990's would walk around with a pocket full of Branch Mint gold coins. He joked about all the pockets he has worn out over the years.