Although it's a 2008 British 5 Pence, would the last photo be a legitimate cud? The Rev. is also loaded with chips. Thanks!
This is a very good example to show why I don't care for the current application and definition of the terms "cud" and "rim cud". As you can see, the break extends to the "wall" of the rim, but not through the top of the rim. Should this be considered a cud or a rim cud? In this case, I don't think either applies, and it should simply be called a die break. Note that there are two other dots in that photo in which the die began to break apart on the side nearest the rim. Chris
That only happens because so many people refuse to adhere to the actual definition of "cud" and "rim cud," which are one and the same thing. The latter term is a bit redundant, because all cuds involve the rim in one sense or another. There are too many people who refuse to understand numismatics has trade-specific definitions of certain words, and won't adhere to that norm. They're an annoyance, and wouldn't last long in an Engineering or Chemistry classroom. There are cuds which are formed by a piece on the edge of the die breaking off: a "Retained cud," where the piece is separated from the rest of the die but still present, and a "full cud," where that piece has departed and just raw metal fills the void. Then there are cuds formed by a piece of the collar breaking away, called (unsurprisingly) "Collar cuds." These can cause metal to flow over onto die space, in which case they become a bit debatable unless you have the coin in hand and can see the metal "folded over." Most normally, though, collar cuds stay in the area where they occur, and infringe only into the rim gutter of the die, if at all. Collar cuds can likely sometimes be mistaken for worn finning. This coin appears to show what we'd call a "full cud" on the lower artifact, from the shape of the intrusion towards the rim. The break (as with the upper, smaller artifact) originated at the dot, I think, and progressed towards the rim until it was complete. The upper artifact is an earlier state of the lower, and if it continued would eventually form something similar. At and above the "E" I see what are likely smaller versions of the same, where the rim gutter itself has fractured. These, I think, are proceeding from the outside in. Makes me wonder if there are later die states of this one where the whole shebang has crumbled.
Yes, two pretty nice "big" die chips on the top and bottom of the right leaf. However, I posted this to verify the cud off the rim. Thanks.
SuperDave, "cud" and "rim cud" are not the same. A cud or corner die break involves the rim gutter and at least a little bit of the adjacent field and/or design. A rim cud is restricted to the die's rim gutter. As far as the coin topping this thread is concerned, I would call it a cud because it extends from the field to the rim gutter. But if you just want to call it by the non-specific term "die break" that's fine with me.
Thank you for the clarification; if I'm going to try to make people use the terminology precisely, I might as well use it that way myself.
Existing terminology and definitions leave much to be desired. But we're stuck with it, so we might as well apply them as originally intended.
