Cracks or Cuds, Where's the Line?

I recently received this coin in change and it is clearly a cracked die. By definition, to be a cud, or retained cud, the broken piece of the die would be on the rim or to put it another way, the crack would cross the rim in two distinct places. This definitely crosses the rim, in two places, and has changed in elevation from the original surface. There is even evidence of this change on the obverse, so it must be a cud or retained cud, right? How large can a cud be before it no longer is described as such, or in other words, when does a cud cross the line to just a broken die?

 

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I'd call that a retained cud.

 

I'm not sure if I am seeing a crack. If what you are asking about is at the right hand initials and at the bottom of the shield then I think you are seeing a stain on your coin . Changes in color don't often follow a die crack.

 

It looks like an odd shaped bubble. It doesn't affect the raised rim and the parts of the design it crosses are fully visible.

 

All I see is a die crack .
Which are very common ....

 

I can't say that I see even that. This appears, to me, to be a stain or - if it has actual z-axis thickness - a thicker liquid such as epoxy which has permanently attached to the coin. A true retained cud would be cracked all the way into the rim of the coin, through the rim gutter, which is still perfect on this coin. Further, there's no reason for there to be discoloration associated with an actual retained cud; in fact that's an argument against.

 

I guess we would need some better images and you could be right on just a stain Dave .

I still would like to know where that cud at ...

 

@Hommer

All I see are two die cracks at about 4pm and 6pm that appear to be independent of one another on your coin. Yes, it does look like the crack from 6pm has turned northeast toward an intersection with the 4pm die crack, but they have not yet met and neither has crossed the rim.

It might have been interesting if you had found this coin in a Mint bag of 2013D cents, and the progression had continued, resulting in a full-blown cud of the area between 4 & 6 pm.

Chris

 

Now here's what I'm talking about and a vam just for die breaks ...

 

Chris, you sure those aren't stain lines like dave said ?

 

With the light coming from the "east-southeast" as in the first image (that's why the lower right of the shield shows as a bright line), if this were die cracking one should see similar brightness along one edge or the other of the "crack," probably the left edge towards the point of the shield. Displaced metal, being more vertical towards the light, should catch and reflect it, and there would be shadow on the side away from the light.

Rick's Peace Dollar shows this, below RTY. See how the crack catches his light (lit from "north-northeast")? And the shadow we'd expect is just in the right place for that lighting, below the lower edge of the crack above the date.

Rick, is that pitting around BE?

 

Ya Dave, it's pitting .

 

Denver coin, then, I think, VAM-1V and maybe that upper pitting is worth calling out in the VAMworld listing. Can you get a thread up about it, with the reverse?

 

Sure Dave and here's the reverse ..

 

Yeah, let's get this out of Hommer's thread and into its' own.

I'll be disappearing to work in a few, and will revisit tonight.

 

See you then Dave .
Was it worth $39.50 ...

 

I'm about 99.99% positive they are cracks.

If it was a retained cud, where are the breaks on the rim?

Chris

 

You could be right Christ, but better images are needed to know for sure .

 

These images are enough for me. I see no reflection/shadow from cracks; there are no cracks. If anything is displaced, it will reflect or block light.

 

As I said earlier, I feel it is a stain. The tell tail for me is where the anomaly comes off the bottom of the shield and goes to the rim. I have never seen a die crack "flow" like this though liquids commonly take this shape