VAM HELP!

Welcome Silverslicker1, Sometimes the forum is like "Game of Thrones", you have to know the characters and their storyline or " I don't understand" . Since you joined this week, you will catch up.

The original book, "The comprehensive Catalogue and Encyclopedia of U.S. Morgan and Peace dollars" is a needed resource for people who are dedicated to VAMs. There is so much more information than on the websites and explains much more in detail. The term "variety" in the book refers to differences, so ALL Morgans and Peace Dollars have a VAM id, even the original 1st die set or the most common. So many die combinations were used, some of limited numbers are still being identified as a new variety today. As said , many are common and worth the minimum for their date and grade, and others the opposite.

 

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You "silver-tongued" devil.

 

I've looked at a lot of photos and this seems to be a common spot for die cracks

 

I said the same thing, and my post disappeared...

oh well.

Great minds think alike

 

All Morgan dollars are VAM's. Even a normal strike is a VAM, but you would be wasting money sending this to Leroy Van Allen for authentication. He is the only person who can authenticate and attribute a new listing, and he doesn't run VAMWorld.

Again, I'll tell you that most die cracks, in and of themselves, do not warrant attribution. It would have to be one like the 1888-O Scarface to be deserving of such an assignment.

Chris

 

That's good research! If you study enough coins in EVERY series you will find that each die design has its weak points and coins in that series will tend to crack in these common spots.

 

Okay! Now that we've pretty much covered the characteristics of die cracks, the next phase of your Morgan training should be how to identify clashes.

Again, the first thing you need to remember is that, like die cracks, clashes are also very common. You can find them on just about every year of the Morgan dollar, but very few of them will warrant attribution. As a general rule, the clashes that are attributed involve letter transfers, like the "E" of LIBERTY, the designer's initial "M" or the "n" or "G" of IGWT.

Clashes like the "Cap Vee", the edge of the eagle's right wing (viewer's left), Liberty's neck and most of the leaves of the wreath are very common, and therefore, are not used as the basis of attribution.

Chris

 

Yes, which is why I requested more than just an image of a die crack.

Sorry, I was out on one of my walks earlier, and couldn't do much from my phone.

You were nice enough to provide additional images, and - believe it or not - they're enough for me to come up with a distinct possibility, based on something that's not even recorded for the VAM.

The two most important details for 1884-O are the date (location and doubling) and the mint mark (shape - round or oval - and doubling if present). Yours is a Normal Date, Oval O type, and your detail image of the mint mark is good enough to conclusively eliminate any of the O/O varieties. That left me only 7 VAMs to really consider.

Your date detail isn't quite as good, but it was good enough. There is no really pronounced doubling, just some subtle doubling under the upper crossbar of the 1, or so it seemed.

That's actually a *good* thing, because it eliminates most of the potential choices, which have more pronounced doubling. What's left? This:

http://www.vamworld.com/1884-O VAM-47

Now for the fun part. Look at the first 8 in your date, and the first 8 of the (sole) image at VAMworld. See the horizontal bar in the center between the upper and lower lobes?

I'm tentatively calling it VAM-47, and that bar in the 8 could be a "killer" pickup for what is otherwise a very innocuous variety, since there are now two known examples of it. If this be the case, it needs to be added at VAMworld, as should the die crack if you could get an image of that area similar to the one of the date. You may have just helped progress the cause of VAMming. @messydesk, could you possibly offer an opinion?

 

pickings will be slim for this one, it has a Normal Date placement ..

 

I disagree.

 

It is already discovered and look at in 2006 ....

Now, you could get lucky and add some full shots of the obverse & reverse, to the vam .

 

Exactly. Right now, it's an "orphan" VAM, with no real supporting data. Images of both faces are warranted - not that they'll really do much good - and more importantly, the die cracks and that line in the 8 if it's adjudicated a righteous "pickup." Those details would make attributing it a snap rather than the slog I just went through, at least for coins in better condition.

I must say, though, I've no idea where PCGS gets off calling this one 64+. The reverse is nice but the obverse - even allowing for the concept of "grazes/frost breaks" being enhanced by digital imagery - is only 64 at all if an optimist is grading the coin.

 

It could add another stage to the vam, thats for sure .
But keep in mind, that vam only has doubling on the 1, that's it ...

 

Nice pick-up on the horizontal mark between the loops of the first "8". On second thought, maybe he should send it to LVA for authentication. It's a small cost, and Leroy would be able to take the plate photos to update the listing at VAMWorld. Let's hear what John @messydesk has to say.

Chris

 

Jim is correct about the info contained in the "Bible" as most VAMpires call the Van Allen/Mallis book. The only thing you must realize is that the last edition (4th) of the book was written in 1991. At that time, there were only 1,800 VAM's for Morgan and Peace dollars. Now, there are more than 4,000.

Chris

 

It's my opinion that any new VAM discovery should go thru John before Leroy even hears of it. Messydesk, or a group discussion over at VAMworld. This is just an addition to existing data, but if the mark flies as a pickup I think Leroy will probably want to sign off on it.

 

I just went through this with my 1880 vam 21A .
http://www.vamworld.com/1880-P+VAM-21A

There was a nice write up that came back from Leroy ...

 

Good work @SuperDave. The one here matches the lone photo on VAM World for VAM-47 and there are several graded and listed on the internet. R-5 may be the actual rarity so far but IMO there are plenty around as few search 1884-O coins for microscopic VAM varieties. Price not listed in VAMview. Also, this obverse may have been used with another reverse.

Die scratches "B" and down near "Y" "bar

 

Wow. What should I do. Do y'all need more photos??

 

Then it should have a different vam number because of the different reverse ?

According to vam world there are no matching dies for that vam (74) ...