Chop Marks--a Question

I am familliar with chop marks on early American silver, but was wondering if they were still doing this at the time of Trade Dollars. I have a Trade Dollar that has a very thin, straight scratch/slice/gash just above nine o'clock in the field that extends almost to Liberty in the center. The reason I am wondering if it is a chop mark and not just a regular old gash is that it stops right at the dentils as though the coin was struck after this damage occured. Does this sound like a chop mark?

Thanks!

 

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Chop marks are common on Trade Dollars. They are not limited to early American (or Spanish) silver by any means. Mexican pesos from the late 1800s have them, too.

Chops are shorthand symbols, often family names or other common ideograms (star bursts, and so on). I have never seen a chop where there was any question about it. Single lonely isolated chops are uncommon. Usually, if a coin has one, it has several.

This is probably something else. Someone may have cut into the coin on purpose. It might have been used as a wedge in a machine. A thousand things might be the cause. Seeing the coin would be helpful, but not always definitive.

 

Chopmarks are one main indicator that the trade dollar in your hand did indeed circulate in the orient. Although collectors generally prefer chopmark free coins, I find it interesting when i come across one full of chopmarks. You know then that it did not sit in some US bank vault.

Cameron Kiefer

 

What am I chopmarked liver?

That being said, I remember the letter to the editor of COIN WORLD about Uncirculated Chopmarked Trade Dollars. I have the xerox of the original advertisement along with the letter here somewhere... Anyway, one of the usual suspects advertises a half page or page of US Type and there is a Trade Dollar with Chop Marks graded Unc. How, the collector asked, does a coin travel from Philadelphia to the Orient, acquire a chopmark, come home, and then get graded Uncirculated?

It is true that "most" collectors prefer Unc[hopped] Trade Dollars and also true that perhaps just as many "mosts" like them with a little character. This is the same situation with Mint State versus Circulated coins. QDB is not alone in saying that while a beautiful Unc is a sight to behold, it does, after all, lack some charm, never having been in the channels of trade. On the other hand, a copper coin with honest wear could tell tales and THAT fact excites our imaginations. So, too, I guess, with chopmarked (circulated) Trade Dollars.

 

I actually knew the thing about the ideograms, and just must have forgotten. As far as the circulated/uncirculated preference question, it's kind of a no brainer for me...my trade dollar is in the VF range, because I can only afford one in that "charming" state! I bought this coin, but won't get too attached to it, because I bought it with the intention of someday trading up. That's the first time I ever bought a coin with the intention of someday selling it. I liked it, and I wanted to have one, but I like the design so much that I think I want to get an unc...or at least a high AU.

Thanks for the info!

 

To me it sounds like damage. Chopmarks were used on Trade Dollars alot. I have a 1876-CC that is graded MS-62 (damaged) I don't know how it could circulate and sill grade MS but i'm not going to complain

 

My understanding of chop marks mostly done on trade dollars btw, is that each trader marked the coin to indicate its value. I have a chinese trade dollar with chop marks they look like chinese caricature writing. I will have to do some research into chop marks now that my curiousity is piqued Jess

 

re:chop marks

I find it interesting that some early chopmarked coins are trading at higher prices than undamaged coins today.They are listed as having
"historic chopmarks" and actually promoted as being better,go figure! Anyway,chops were Chinese(and other location) Merchant marks that were applied after the purity of the metal had been verified.Whithout these marks,the trade coins wouldn't circulate in the orient.Chops are often found on Spanish Colonial coinage,World crowns,and various trade dollars.Few people realize that minor silver was also chopped.Even some early U.S.coinage that circulated there recieved chops.I've seen a couple "Draped Bust" Dollar's with chops,as well as a Dime from that series.Basically it was a easy way to tell the local people that these coins were good money. ~ Jim

http://groups.msn.com/ErrorWorld/_whatsnew.msnw

 

My hats off to Jim with his last post. That was informative for me because I knew nothing of the minor coin chop marks. Chop Marked coins with certain marks are bringing a premium in todays market, however, those marked really bad do not go figure. Of course if I was around at that time, I may have placed my own mark on the coins.

 

Why are you raising threads from 16 years in the past? This is the only place on the Internet where you wouldn't be called a troll for it. It's "legal" here, but I for one am quickly losing respect for you.

 

I am very sorry. My friends and I were playing a game and they made me do this. I won't do it again.

 

I certainly wouldn't do it for some foolish "game" again, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with bumping an old thread if you have a good reason for doing it, or the information within is solid. Anyone anywhere who would blindly judge someone a "troll" for innocently doing so is beyond ridiculous, and should give long hard thought to their priorities.

 

The other ones have already been reversed by the Admins.

Kellen Coin, thank you for being man enough to own up and apologize.

 

Wow. I never knew Cameron was a member here. He has passed away but he started Sampleslabs.com. He was a very smart young man with great grading skills.

 

Dave , great way to encourage YN s . A thoughtful rebuke would have been much better . You talk about wanting to teach , and with your knowledge you certainly could . But not by demeaning people no matter what there reason .

 

Nowhere does Dave "demean" anyone. You can lose respect for someone without demeaning them.

 

The "other ones"? Perhaps you could be a little less vague?

This isn't about foolishly or unnecessarily bumping an older thread, particularly if it has no present value, but there are plenty that do and many who could benefit from them. I can certainly see why this should be frowned upon in some other areas, but not, as a blanket rule, with coins. Has every quality contribution made by members past magically become foolish, harmful, or unhelpful, including your own? Of course not, so if there's no harm, why the foul?

 

I honestly cannot; I saw two others (and reported one of them), and apparently Admin action was initiated. Unless my search skills are remiss, they no longer exist. Those posts do_not exist in Kellen Coins' posting history any longer.

In the bigger picture, I have three arguments against bumping very old threads, one of which encompasses a far larger picture than numismatics and the other two specifically-relevant to numismatics:

A) In almost all other online venues, such acts are considered negative across a range from "impolite" to "you're going to get immediately dogpiled and possibly banned" for doing it. This is the only_place in all my years of online community experience - spanning as large a variety of subject concentrations as could be imagined, and also including other numismatic fora - where the practice is actually encouraged by the membership, much less the Admins. Kellen Coins is a youngster, operating in an adult environment, and it's in view of this bigger picture that I chose to be harsh in this instance in the hopes of imparting a strong-enough lesson to make him greatly averse to it in the future. I could not care less to any resulting damage to my own reputation; he's more important than me because his future is still vast, and with that perspective in mind he could screw it up for the same reasons why compound interest works - the Internet never forgets.

B) Not everything in numismatics is static. Information changes; facts multiply and sometimes reverse previously-known "facts." A five-year-old thread about the commonality of certain Morgan varieties, for instance, would contain downright misleading information. Newer members - the ones who wouldn't necessarily catch the "necro" nature of a given thread - could easily be misinformed, and worse yet, jumbled around (I call it "thrown into the dryer") by the conflict of older information being actively contended against by more-informed newer posters. This is not a good look, especially in our niche where many new members are not only new to coins but new to the Internet (which is why so many of them bump very old threads; old Internet hands would have eschewed that habit years ago).

C) Older, longer threads are a deterrent to newer members as well. Who wants to jump for the first time into a four-page thread, having to read all that? Long experience tells me that more frequent, fresher discussions of common topics have more intrinsic value to a newer poster, especially because they can feel like they're being addressed personally. It's why I will never tire of endlessly repeating the same words about the use of acetone (for instance). It needs to be talked about - again - as often as it's asked, as long as there isn't another identical thread still active on the subject. If it was that good, it's worth repeating fresh because that has a more favorable impact upon the audience.

None of this applies to "old hands." You and I understand stuff like this at a glance, and can take it in stride for what it really is without deliberate values judgments. We just can't lose sight of the bigger picture, that for every poster there are ten who read and never post, and they're learning as much as the people typing at the keyboard. We need to be cognizant of what we're teaching them, and how they most easily learn.

 

I just read this thread not noticing the dates, and enjoyed it. Any other forum I am on, this is a common occurence. Whats worse, internet troll or internet bully? The only reason I stay on this board is because I love coins (even though Ive been told its not the right forum for me) but if you are trying to make it more encouraging for newbies to post you're doing it wrong.