A growing controversial subject, more individuals are asking. Is it possible : To have a bronze uncirculated? What is an untouched bronze? Can you get consistent way of grading 2000 year old bronze? Can bronzes like a paining be renovated? Should dealers be responsible to advice you of the true condition of a bronze? Areas like these should they be disclosed by the seller? Tooling Smoothing New patina Epoxy filling Regards Jeff
Doug has some good pages on the subject: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/grade.html http://www.forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/impossible.html My two cents: - dealers should point out any flaws the coin has (porosity, wear, bronze disease, erosion, graffiti, cracks, holes, deposits) and whether there's evidence the coin has been tampered with (tooling, repatination, smoothing, filled holes, clipping, ex-jewlery etc) - grading of ancient coins is pretty meaningless. Dealers tend to grade their coins as Fine or better, even when they are clearly fine or worse. If you want a coin graded, my question is: what's the benefit? - Instead of relying on a declared grade, the dealer's photos should speak for themselves. Certainly dealers should disclose if the coin is not the same colour in the photo as in hand (some patinas are very hard to photograph accurately).
My understanding of an 'untouched' bronze is one with zero smoothing or tooling. It can be cleaned in the washed sense of the word but not picked at to remove adhesions. Certainly a bronze can be renovated but while paintings benefit from it, coins are considered defective because something was done. Some things are worse than others. All of the listed bad things should be disclosed by the seller but more people will accept smoothing than the others. Consistent grading will require people to agree on which faults are major and which are more situations than faults. My Impossible to Grade page tried to make this point. I believe the answer is No, there is no way that will work for every coin. Dealers who do not disclose the dirty little secrets are nothing more than shysters on a street corner. Buying from an ignorant unknown on eBay is better than a professional dealer who knows and does not disclose. Many bronzes are uncirculated; some are better than they were when struck because of the lovely patinas they developed over time. Just opinions but my opinions!
I used to tolerate a bit of smoothing, but I've slowly evolved away from it. I now hate any sort of tooling or smoothing, or fake patination for that matter - I just can't stand how it looks. Give me a light cleaning and leave the surfaces alone no matter how rough, and you'll make me a happy camper. Here are some bronzes I bought (and sold) recently that I think are just perfect as-is. Nothing says rugged beauty like an ancient bronze.
In my opinion, tooling, smoothing(Except extremely minor smoothing that happens as part of cleaning) and any repairs(including repatination) should be disclosed by a seller and if any of these are discovered after the fact should be grounds for returning a coin. A coin that has had repairs or restoration done is no longer original and I'd much rather have an ugly-but-original bronze than a superficially-beautiful "restored" bronze.
I totally agree ... => I am a huge fan of a coin with just enough grunge to make it look like a "real" ancient coin (nobody likes a pretty-boy!!)
I think grading ancients on a single scale is impossible and discussion of it is tiring. There is no good parallel with grading US coins on the linear MS scale. Jeff and Doug have begun a list of factors to consider, which is worthwhile. However, weighing those factors is personal. I would add to the list of important factors clarity of strike centering style authenticity Perhaps dealers "should" tell potential buyers about flaws, but most don't unless they are egregious and then problems tend to be understated. For example "light porosity" often means "very porous." "Slightly off-center" often means "A lot of the design is off the flan." I agree with Greg and Doug. Learn what factors make a better coin and what makes a detraction. There are too many to ever be put on one scale. Beyond that, "What's the benefit?"
When I buy an ancient coin, I buy in person at a coin show, or when good pictures are available. I take seller's grades with a grain of salt. Not all grading is bad. If a dealer has several items for sale, the one assigned a higher grade is usually batter. When I buy on line, I take the time to find several other examples of the coin I am buying (CNG, Wildwinds, SIXBID, etc offer databases). I have always found another example Roman Republican denarii of I want unless you count bankers marks or die markers.
Here is the only altered coin I ever bought (that I was aware of). Sometimes a coin is just wonderful enough that some things can be tolerated. Interestingly, while many people thought it was tooled it was not, but had some light smoothing on the obverse: That said, people often see what is not there. Here is another coin which got some negative comments ranging from 'fake', 'tooled', 'smoothed' etc. None of those things, just a worn coin:
That Antoninius Pius is absolutely stunning. I can see why people might guess it was tooled. The other is Germanicus, right? I'm not familiar with the type. What are the signs of tooling or smoothing on an ancient coin? I'd be able to tell on a more modern coin, but I don't know what to look for on a coin that's spent potentially hundreds of years in the ground.
The other is Domitian. Recognizing altered coins comes with experience, but just do a simply search. Check the list below from CNG sales results (search query 'tooled'). Just a little time examining those will give you a good idea: http://cngcoins.com/Search.aspx?IS_...1&SEARCH_IN_CONTAINER_TYPE_ID_2=1&VIEW_TYPE=0
I see... looks like Galba's jawline got some help there. I'll definitely do some additional searching. Also, I love Bender, too.
Many good points are raised here. Depending on the circumstance and coin, I can tolerate some smoothing. I've even bought a tooled coin or two even though I shouldn't have (one I didn't realize, one I did). I'd prefer that no one tooled their coins. As for patinas, I strongly suspect that some of our bronze coins, praised for their fine patinas (especially certain shades of thick green patinas), have in fact had those patinas created by a person in modern times. Bronze and copper patination techniques have been around for a very long time. I don't put as much importance on patina, other than if it is intact or not, whether relatively fresh patina "chips" could invite bronze disease, and whether the overall look is appealing. What color would you like your bronze coin to be? Here's a sampling of colors created by various patina recipes (copied from sciencecompany.com): 1. Light to Dark Brown 2. Brown to Black 3. Blackish Brown 4. Florentine Brown 5. Antique Green 6. Basic Green 7. Blue Green 8. Cold Process Green 9. Light Green 10. Green 11. Green-Blue (Flemish) 12. Purple to Light Green 13. Transparent Blue 14. Blue 15. Straw Yellow 16. Golden Yellow 17. Deep Rust Red 18. Purple 19. Antique White 20. Red - semi-matt (For Copper & Copper Plate) 21. Dull Pink (For Copper & Copper Plate) 22. Red - Purple Satin (For Cast Bronze and Brass) 23. Orange Brown (For Cast Bronze and Brass) 24. Black - semi-gloss (For Cast Bronze and Brass) 25. Blue Green (For Cast Bronze and Brass) 26. Golden Yellow (For Cast Bronze and Brass) 27. Blue Green - semi-matt (For Cast Bronze and Brass) 28. Brown - Greenish Yellow (For Cast Bronze and Brass) 29. Reddish Brown (For Cast Bronze and Brass) 30. Black (For Cast Bronze and Brass) 31. Variegated Gold-Brown (For Cast Bronze and Brass) 32. Red (For Cast Bronze and Brass) A similar list of recipes is published by the US Government, "Historic Preservation - Technical Procedures". If a coin isn't tooled and if the new patina is done well, I don't really care if the patina formed two years ago or two millennia ago, as long as the patination recipe does not induce accelerated deterioration of the fabric. Fake desert patinas are a different story. The common practice of applying colored wax, makeup, or a slurry of yellow/orange clay to bronze to fill pits and provide contrast for the devices is not okay. There are a couple of dealers on a popular ancient coin sales site who appear to routinely apply such stuff to their bronze coins. Beware these orange-yellow "desert patinas". As for the OP's questions about manipulation, I think dealers should disclose tooling and filling. "Smoothing" may be a bit difficult because it may be hard to distinguish the line between "artifact of cleaning" and "smoothing". Re-patination: well... that is probably considered a routine part of conservation of bronze coins. I don't feel as strongly about disclosure of that, except that gunk applied to mimic desert patination should be disclosed. Better yet, it should be removed. True patinas-- changes to the color and composition of the coin's surface-- cannot be removed with a simple soak in water, alcohol, or acetone. Of course it is possible that a given bronze coin may not have circulated. A coin not cleaned or molested in any way, which is probably almost impossible to determine so I don't think noting that as a selling point has much meaning other than for marketing purposes. No, and who cares? "Grade" the coin yourself. If you like it, are happy with the price, and can afford it-- buy it. Yes, many bronze coins can and should be and are "conserved" (cleaned and/or treated for bronze disease). See above discussion.
Paul, Make sure you hit the various tabs at the top. That link I sent was not just the Galba, but included 440 lots in the eAuction tab and another 69 under the Printed Auctions tab.
OPINION WANTED - How do you grade Roman Bronzes? Members of the FORUM, I WISH TO THANK YOU ALL. The amount of opinions and ideas which you have brought to the forefront have broadened my overall consideration on the subject of grading Roman Bronzes. It has become more difficult as demand is growing and people demand not only for historical pieces but the quality of coins as I have always collected as I consider Roman Imperial Bronzes and others works of ART. I have been collecting for 40 years and I am of the opinion I have only a little knowledge. Regards & thanks again Jeff
