“Circulation” wear from sitting in a non-PVC flip

Theoretically, you cannot have circulated mint state coins. Uncirculated, or”mint state” coins by definition have never entered circulation. To say otherwise is contradictory.

 

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Say that to PCGS and NGC. They grade circulated coins as MS on a regular basis.
I get your point though.

 

TPGs do a lot of things that are inconsistent. I have, likewise, seen them grade coins that have clear evidence of minor circulation wear as MS. However, theoretically, that should not be the case. Mint State or Uncirculated (they are synonymous) should mean never having been in circulation. However, we, as collectors bend that definition all the time. The AU 58 is the classic example— on any given date, a TPG can certify it as AU 58, or MS 62.

 

Depending on the coin, the 62 mark was an early slider. Circ coins have been found in 64's nowadays. This is all a part of market grading and not the standards that we learned.

 

These are not my definitions but were taken from highly respected resources:

Mint state refers to a coin's condition on the Sheldon Coin Grading Scale. Mint state coins can range in condition from being poorly struck with many heavy marks to showing absolutely no visual marks, even after 5x magnification. Mint state coins are noted with “MS” preceding the number on the coin label.

This list explains brilliant uncirculated grades:
• A grade from 60 to 70 indicates a brilliant uncirculated coin.
• “MS” before the grade indicates mint state, or a business-strike coin that has never been circulated. These coins may be manufactured exactly the same as currency but never circulated.
• If you see “PR” before the grade, you will know you have found a proof coin. By itself, proof doesn’t indicate a particular grade. Instead, it indicates higher quality manufacturing methods used to produce coins that were always intended as collectibles and not currency.

And

The term uncirculated coin can refer to three things:
• A coin that is released to the public but not intended for general circulation (i.e. not used as money although it is still legal tender) but is available through a mint or through a local coin dealer.[1]
Obverse of an uncirculated 50 State quarter.
A bag of 1,000 uncirculated US quarters and two $10 rolls containing 40 quarters.
• A coin that has been graded as 60+ on the Sheldon or European grading systems.[2]
• The process by which a coin is made. The US Mint uses this definition for the coins in the uncirculated coin set that it sells. For these coins, adjustments are made to the minting process which result in a more proof-like finish. These include using a higher force during coining, the use of fresh dies, and special cleaning.[3]

 

I can buy something using the coins in an unbroken mint set at face value. It has circulated. It also is still mint state. That is undeniable.

 

Yeah but the problem is wear from circulation manifests with chatter in the fields and equivalent wear from non circulation sources doesn't, and the impact on the quality of the coin is very different. The grading scale is insufficient to differentiate between the above coins without market grading.

 

Of course, this will be met with the “buy the coin, not the grade” argument… and we go back to the start of the loop.

 

Well then - I guess there must be very few truly uncirculated coins. Once it leaves the mint and possession is taken by another party - technically it has been circulated. Even mint sets and proof sets have been circulated once delivered to the purchaser.

 

My take on Doug’s point is that any wear is supposed to take it out of UNC/Mint-State. Whether the coin ever entered circulation is irrelevant; the concern is wear.

 

Prove it is "wear". That works both ways. Define "wear". Is it a rub, is it a break in luster, is it a dip, is it "cabinet friction", is it a fingerprint, is it toning, is it spittle, is it water marks, is it rustication, is it ????

 

Perhaps a criteria or definition of circulated would be easier. Such as does a coin have to be utilized for the purchase of goods before it is circulated?

 

Does it matter?

 

True. I agree. It took me a while to learn this but coins with dark toning still give me trouble.

 

Yeah, they seem to have their own take on things......

 

The scale is fine if you only look at the prefixes. An MS coin has no wear, AU has light wear, etc. Fantastic. That works. The scale also works if you only use the numbers, i.e. a 65 is a better coin than a 60 is a better coin than a 55.

The scale does NOT work when you put them together, because the numeric grade is frequently at odds with the prefix. An AU58 is generally a better coin than an MS61 for example. Market grading is an acknowledgement of this very real problem.

I for one have always been confused by your position. The problem exists whether you acknowledge it or not. Since market grading is an imperfect solution, I would expect that someone who advocates for technical grading would support fixing the grading scale as to remove the need for market grading. That's all it would take.