Details of the engraving process

They used them in Greece as well:



And on aurei dies:



Interestingly, I don't recall ever seeing one on the obverse of a coin. I wonder if this is intentional, or if the obverse is generally easier to execute from an artistic perspective, not requiring the guide lines.

 

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Perhaps someone could explain why the guide lines had to be engraved onto the dies as opposed to just painted on, like in masonry and carpentry.

Why was this device only used on reverse?

 

I suspect they were on obverses but more care was taken to polish them off or they wore off sooner for some reason. I went through my SS Emesa coins and found two. This is the stronger.

 

Why, what a fascinating subject. Wonder what an engraver has to say on it.

 

I posted this a few months back. I no longer own it.



The celators arc can be clearly seen on the reverse in the upper right quadrant. It crosses partially into the lower right quadrant.

I always thought it had an arc on the front between the plumage and the first letter but this was the only photo I had and it is not really discernible here.

Also, the OP is quite fantastic.

 

Now that's even stranger on 4-2c's coin, it actually sits in the middle of the text.
How does that even serve the purpose of guiding the placement of text?

Also on Doug's latest example, between 9 and 11 o'clock, doesn't that look like a correction was made or was it just me?

 

I have been browsing through my coins of Sepimius Severus to see if I couldfind any obverse circle guides. Out of about 450 coins I have six coins showing remains of the circle guide on the obverse with about 20 showing some on the reverse.

Here is what I think is my best example of several facets at once. Obverse guide at 3 o'clock and 7 to 9 o'clock. Reverse guide at 11 to 2 o'clock and at 7 o'clock. In letter marks are also visible on the C at 7 o'clock on the obverse for example. Both images can be clicked to enlarge them.




Now comes the discussion about why they should occur less on the obverse than the reverse. Here are my thoughts.

We know that an obverse die is used with multiple reverse dies. I would suggest that the obverse die lasts longer than the reverse die due to the mechanics of the striking process. I we accept that these fine details are lost after repeated strikes then you end up with a scenario where you can have guide circles occuring much more scarcely than we see them on reverses and why coins without any marks are predominant.

As such a coin with circle marks on both sides would be one where both dies are fresh and thus would occur much less frequently.

Thoughts?
Martin

 

Wow very informative, nice coins guys.

 

While I agree that obverse dies lat longer than reverses, I do not think this is the entire story with Emesa where some obverse dies were used with a dozen reverses and it is more likely to find an obverse with two different reverses types than with two reverse dies of the same type. There has always been the question of whether the two dies might have been made of different metals but I have not seen evidence that convinces me of this. Finally I feel that we should have reverse dies that show a lot of wear and failure from faults if they were wearing out. After all this mint used that IIC die with a large hunk missing for a long time so they were not so quality conscious that they destroyed coins showing die deterioration.

I am able to accept the idea that we have fewer 'first strike' obverses since the dies last longer and Martins 6:20 proportion seems about right for the die life ratio if we assume that the layout lines and scratches only lasted a few strikes (who knows how many???).

I discovered a coin with small traces of the layout circle on both sides (obv. 10 o'clock; rev. 7 o'clock) which one of you now owns via the JA sales. I am not suggesting that this makes the coin worth more but I have no problem whatsoever with everyone here bidding up JA's sales especially when they contain my coins. Who know what else I'll overlook?

 

I have a legionary issue of Antony's which only has 1 rower which I've never seen before or since. Phil Davis, who's opinion I respect very much, thinks it's not even a rower; it's a centering point for the engraver.

The reverse has some unusual die wear or a clogged die so I guess it's possible that all the rowers are clogged, but I tend to think it's an unfinished obverse die.

 

That would be me. It's funny, though, that the image I have does not show the lines as prominently as your image. However, I now have an annotation in my catalog regarding the "layout circles".

This has been a very informative thread. Thanks to all who have participated. I'm still the dunce of the class, but I think I've learned something here.

 

The sharpness of the tool and the depth that the lines were cut would also vary from die to die, this could have something to do with when they show up as well. Yes, I do cut dies, my avatar is one that I did for Shire Post Mint from their Game of Thrones series of tokens. It is all hand engraved, no power tools. The beaded boarder was punched over an engraved circle to keep it straight. In many old hand cut dies with beaded boarder you can see bits of the line between the beads.

 

After looking through about 600 of my Probus coins I can only find one with any trace of a circle guide. Just the small section at 12 o'clock on the reverse.