CAC order I'm sending in. Which one's will pass, fail, exceed?

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by C-B-D, Dec 29, 2015.

  1. mark_h

    mark_h Somewhere over the rainbow

    Where and in what book does it say eye appeal is part of the grading process? And who decides what eye appeal is? Coins can be accurately graded and have zero eye appeal to collectors. Eye appeal only has to do with the buyer and them deciding to buy a coin. If it was off eye appeal then that 1837 would have got a sticker.
     
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  3. dwhiz

    dwhiz Collector Supporter

    it's a crap shoot their is only one sticker of any value......but I'm on vacation and it's not on my lap top ....darn
     
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  4. ddollard58

    ddollard58 Active Member

    Love the bust half's,The 03 IHC in my opinion is really nice,To ME it appeal's to MY eye.ALL beautiful coin's!!! And a really nice post,Thank You! HAPPY HUNTING ALL;)!!!
     
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  5. physics-fan3.14

    physics-fan3.14 You got any more of them.... prooflikes?

    (Almost) Every grading book since the late '80's has included "eye appeal" as one of the attributes which drives the grade of a coin. Eye appeal is absolutely one facet of grading. A coin which is otherwise a 65 will definitely get bumped down to 64 if it has poor eye appeal, and will get bumped up to 66 if it has great eye appeal. If you question that, you really don't understand how the TPG's work. Yes, it is subjective, and yes, it is an opinion. That is why there is an "art" to the "science" of grading coins.

    The TPGs use "market grading," which attempts to place a value on a coin. The value, as you will agree, is based in part on the eye appeal of a coin. "Technical grading," such as used by EAC, does not include eye appeal as a factor in grading.

    The 1827 half didn't get a sticker because it has been cleaned/dipped and retoned. CAC values originality above anything else. It doesn't have great eye appeal, but CAC will sticker ugly coins if they are original and in the upper 2/3 of the grade bracket. They will not (usually) sticker coins that have been cleaned.

    Edited to add: oops, just noticed you were talking about the 1837 half, not the '27. I'm guessing that there is something hiding in the pictures on the '37 that is more apparent in hand. Not entirely sure why it didn't sticker - but my comments regarding eye appeal and grading above still stand.
     
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  6. SuperDave

    SuperDave Free the Cartwheels!

    Um, that's why they call grading "subjective." If you're not factoring eye appeal into your grading, you're alone in that.
     
    mac266 likes this.
  7. mark_h

    mark_h Somewhere over the rainbow

    I am not arguing what TPG's will do - I agree with you on that. What I am saying, and you answered it above - cac will sticker ugly coins. So when people say a coin did not get a sticker because of eye appeal I am going to say it does not come into play. Like you said "a correctly graded" ugly coin will get a sticker. So eye appeal did not come into the grading on that coin. On the flip side I think you might also agree there are some really nice eye-appealing coins out there that did not get a sticker, because they are over graded. Just what you said about tpg's - and yet cac does not sticker them.

    Don't forget I never said that TPG's or even CAC are infallible. Plus when you look at like the CAC page - it says something like it meets the strict standard for the grade. Me, personally, when I look at a coin I form an opinion on what the grade is - never do I change the grade because it has my kind of eye appeal or lower it because I think it is ugly. I also do not claim to be infallible either.

    Now when we play guess the TPG grade on the coin - it does come into play and I might very well factor it in on a guess. And yes I will technical grade a coin first and then think about what a tpg will do.
     
  8. TubeRider

    TubeRider Active Member

    Here is a start:

    PCGS Official Guide to Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detection 2nd Edition: pgs. 59-60 also mentioned in every grading definition from P01-MS70 running from pgs. 25-40

    Official ANA Grading Standards 7th Edition pgs. 25-28 and part of every written grade definition they have from AU-53-MS70.

    The Art and Science of Grading Coins: All of chapter 10 starting at pg. 145
    (Awesome Book!! Thank You Jason!!!)

    Making The Grade: pg. 10
     
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  9. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Originality is a form of eye appeal. They have a look they like, and yes negative eye appeal will kill a coin from getting beaned from time to time. As far as ugly beaned coins its possible some turned in the holder and its also true on many of them we shouldn't be make concrete judgements from a picture. That said they have looks they like, people can agree or disagree but eye appeal is 100 percent absolutely part of the evaluation.

    They aren't not that is human is obviously.

    That's where you end up on a one man island. If that is how you choose to do it by all means go for it, but that is not how anything else does.
     
  10. mark_h

    mark_h Somewhere over the rainbow

    You are definitely correct about using pictures. And it can be tough to tell what turned in a holder after it is looked at. And yes I do think originality of the surfaces of a coin comes into play with CAC. All that I am saying is that eye appeal is not what CAC is using to say it does or does not get a bean. CAC is trying to identify coins correctly graded or in the top tier of the grade for the coin. CAC will bean correctly graded coins that have 0 eye appeal. They will also not bean coins that are over graded, but have a really nice eye appeal.

    And yes I might very well be alone - I might technical grade, but I am not going to bump a coin or drop a coin based off "eye appeal" of a coin. And yes I have an ANA grading book - so if anyone wants to assume all MS-64 coins are quite attractive, or all MS-65 coins are very pleasing they can go for it. Personally I have seen some quite attractive 64's in hand that I would not bump to a 65 because of technical reasons. I am trying very hard to stay away from what tpgs might or might not do - and I never said what they do is wrong. I do not assume because I think a coin in a tpg 65 holder is a 64 that the tpg got it wrong. I might not buy the coin because of it or I might look more to see what the tpg saw that I missed.
     
  11. SuperDave

    SuperDave Free the Cartwheels!

    OK. You seem pretty secure in your opinion; it's obviously thought through. Legit question - how does your thinking treat, say, a decent (technically) MS65 Peace Dollar with fugly dark toning? For me, if the coin isn't a strong 65, I'm contempleting calling it 64 via factoring eye appeal.

    I'm serious - I might be able to learn from you here, even if we don't end up agreeing.
     
  12. mark_h

    mark_h Somewhere over the rainbow

    This is a very good example, because I typically do not look at dark toned coins. I usually flat out skip coins in the local dealer shops with that fugly toning I think you are talking about. Basically I do this with all coins - and from pictures it can be really hard, but lets say I have the coin in hand. When I look at it I technical grade it - can I see the luster, or too many distracting hits. That gets me a grade. Then I ask myself - does this coin have my eye appeal - nope, so back it goes and on to the next. I don't assume the TPG got it wrong, I don't assume it is not typical eye appeal of the grade - it is just not what I am looking for in that grade for that coin. So what I deem as eye appealing does not come into play on getting a grade. Now when looking at it in hand - I might not see the luster to call it 65 just because of the dark toning so I might very well come up with a technical grade of 64 or even 63. The result is the same back goes the coin into the dealers case. I do not say the grade is 64 because of eye appeal - I will say I can't see the luster to call it a 65. I personally think coins can be strong for the grade and be bugly(and not typical for the grade and this fugly toning is an example).

    Some people really like those darkly tone coins, they have great eye appeal to them - so I do not knock what they like or drop a grade because it is what I do not like. As a matter of fact I usually think the tpg saw something I did not to warrant the grade, but in either case I am not buying the coin.

    When I think about all the GTG we have had on here where people explain the reason the gave the grade they did - it is typically technical reasons they provide on why they gave the coin the grade the did. To me personal eye appeal is the last factor to buying a coin, not getting the grade.
     
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  13. mark_h

    mark_h Somewhere over the rainbow

    I just thought of something else - why did you stop at 64? And maybe call it a 62 because it is fugly. And this is possible a learning opportunity for both of us. I think the bottom line is neither one of us buys the coin.
     
  14. SuperDave

    SuperDave Free the Cartwheels!

    No, neither of us buys the coin. I stop at one grade because that's as hard a black mark as I will bestow for pure eye appeal. You can't deny technical qualification. Much the same way, I can envision going up one for eye appeal, but it better be a Plus coin to begin with and then you run into the point that eye appeal has to be a prerequisite for that higher grade, you know? So you don't do that even as freely as you'd go the other way.

    So what I'm doing here is figure skating grading, with a large majority being technical skill and a small amount being artistic presentation.
     
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  15. JPeace$

    JPeace$ Coinaholic

    Excellent post. I do something very similar. For me though, eye appeal is what gets me to pick up the coin and evaluate it. If the coin doesn't suit my eye, I just move on.

    I was looking at some 1964 business strike Kennedy's yesterday. I'm not a Kennedy collector, but I want to have a '64 Proof (Accented Hair and "regular") and business strike for my collection. Some of the MS68's I saw in top tier TPG holders had very ugly toning. I just passed on them, whether they were technically sound grades or not. So for me, it starts with eye appeal, than reverts to technical grading. Sometimes, in the case of Morgan's, they can be one and the same: lots of contact/bag marks can ruin eye appeal as well as keep the technical grade low.
     
    mark_h likes this.
  16. TubeRider

    TubeRider Active Member

    As far a my own studies show, TPGs can often knock a coin down a grade for poor eye appeal and can just as easily move a coin up as much as 2 grades for amazing, incredible toning.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2016
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  17. Omegaraptor

    Omegaraptor Gobrecht/Longacre Enthusiast

    The 1865 2 cent piece is undergraded and is worthy of a green bean IMO.
     
  18. mark_h

    mark_h Somewhere over the rainbow

    Exactly what I was just thinking and what I was coming to post after I went offline. I have actually been thinking about this for a while and I think you hit the nail on the head. Maybe what I am calling technical grading others are calling eye appeal. So for me - the hits on a morgans cheek I consider technical grading. Same for carbon spotting on lincolns - I think of them as technical aspects of the grade. Like you said they can ruin the eye appeal of me picking the coin up to start with. So maybe we are saying the same thing just different ways.
     
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  19. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    I disagree from personal experience with them. I would agree eye appeal won't save a coin that was graded horrendously, but barring a super strong technical coin if it's not the look they like being okay for the grade won't get it a bean.

    Yes and no. If it is average usually not from my experience. Technically strong with an original look sure, but in all honesty it seems to depend on the series. Bust halves, early copper, gold, and Ike's they are brutally hard on. MS 65 and higher P mint Ikes may be one of their most miserable sticker rates outside of gold.

    I do completely agree though that we make far to many concrete decisions based off of pictures.

    I also agree eye appeal is not a set standard. Some people like blast white, some like color, some like originality, I am not arguing they are right or wrong in a lot of instances however certain series like gold the bean is a massive selling point.

    I will be in the minority for this, but depending on the grade there are some I do actually love. A dark XF I could be all over, but yes I do agree a 66 would make me go hmm.

    I cannot disagree with that, however grading standards are a huge factor here. Granted a AU 53 that's netted to a 45/40 quickly becomes a gem if eye appeal does it, but at the same time something is very unlikely to be strong for the grade if eye appeal is part of the grading.
     
    mark_h likes this.
  20. mark_h

    mark_h Somewhere over the rainbow

    I think we are one the same page. I think I was just saying things wrong. I am not a fan of blast white and dark toning - so when looking thru a slabbed box of coins I skip them completely - but a lightly toned coin that catches my attention I will look at more closely.
     
  21. SuperDave

    SuperDave Free the Cartwheels!

    I think we tried to have an argument here and a discussion broke out. :)
     
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