Julius Caesar denarius

Hi everyone. Just picked up this denarius at the NYINC. I finally have a portrait coin of Julius Caesar. I paid $700 for it. Seems like a fair price in my opinion but I wanted to see what your guys thought.

Thanks,
Larry
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That is a great portrait coin of Julius Caesar to have! Finding such coins is difficult, and your example at your price would be wonderful to own if/when I assemble a 12 Caesar type set.

 

For a portrait caesar, thats about the range. Nice coin.

 

way out of my league, so can't comment on price...but the coin is cool for sure.

 

I'm traveling and trying to use my phone, but something just doesn't look right on the OP coin. I hope I'm wrong and it's just the image on my phone.

 

The shade of the metal and the edge look a little odd to me, and its so worn that you would not be able to tell if it was casted or struck, but I'm not an expert by any means and won't judge a coin as fake unless it is extremely obvious, so I kept quiet. I think we need some RR experts and perhaps a better picture to say anything for sure.

 

My first thought was that it was fourree with very tightly attached but thin worn plating. Looking again I decided that it was more likely solid but had been polished aggressively to wear away the dark patina. In all honesty, I am not convinced one way or another based only on the photo. IMHO this is a coin worth spending the money to have Sear certified unless the seller had sold it as plated or as is so there is no recourse if it comes back plated or fake. On the other hand, that is an excellent portrait for Caesar despite the raccoon eye toning. Is it worth $700? Probably in NYINC dollars but I probably would not have done well there being more cheap than is good to be.

 

This one is now for sale at a auction it will go high I think but looks very good it is now at 500 Usd for the moment..

 

"For the moment" will not last long. This is the common portrait type and I would really prefer the cow or eagle, etc. but this will go higher.

 

Or elephant?

 

The OP coin looks good to me. Since you got it at the show, the dealer is undoubtedly reputable. I think the price was right as well. Both sides well centered and a rare type.
As Doug said, the one at auction will sell for far more than the current price plus juice, plus paypal fees etc.

 

I see also this one for sale, Vercingetorix,pufff they belong together in a collection, I did not know the guy is quite a ugly dude..

 

awww I had a hostilia lost to USPS express mail international.
sometimes I wonder where that coin is...

 

Unfortunately, the "traditional" notion that the Hostilia type depicts Vercingetorix himself, rather than a "generic" male Gaul, is unlikely. That's just not the way the Romans did things. If they ever depict an enemy, it's as a defeated captive. For that reason, Crawford 452/4, showing a captive Gaul (with a distinctively large head) beneath a trophy, may well be intended to represent V. That humiliated pose is a far cry from the defiant head in question.

But...

Some of these "Vercingetorix" denarii, such as the coin I've attached, really do seem to be too detailed and "realistic" not to have been drawn from life. Who better to serve as a model than the most famous and feared Gaul of all, conveniently languishing in a Roman jail? I don't find it far-fetched to imagine the moneyer arranging a well-guarded sitting, with the real V. serving as the model for the archetypal Gaul depicted on the coin. That doesn't mean it should properly be thought of as a "portrait" though; that's not how the dynamic between model and artwork ever functions. The US Sacajawea dollar coin is a portrait of Sacajawea, not of the anonymous (at least to me) real-life woman who modeled for it.

My example:

 

I can't agree with this. If a collector aims to have only one Caesar portrait, I think a lifetime coin is far more interesting and desirable, "common" though it may be. The later coins with Caesar's portrait struck for Octavian are better thought of as commemoratives of a sort than as coins of Julius Caesar himself.

On the same principle, if I collected Greek coins and desired only a single piece of Alexander, I would look for one issued while Alexander was alive.

Phil Davis

 

Those captive depictions weren't portrait either.
Both (male and female) hostillus depictions were portraits, with distinct features so they could be identified as gallic. They are not the same as dacia in mourning or little figure with hands tied behind their back.

 

Here's an example of Crawford 452/4, the seated captive type I mentioned. Note especially the unnaturally large head.



This example ex Leu 83 in 2002; sadly, NOT my coin.

 

I can see this as a valid point just not one that is important to me since I rarely want just one of anything. It is a good thing I don't collect EID MAR; I'd want die varieties. Of the 100 or so, how many are owned in multiples?

Regarding the OP coin: To what do you attribute the completely missing S left of the portrait? The coin is well struck and sharp even on the back of the neck and there is much flan over there. Often a filled die shows a hint or disruption but where is this S?

At the last Baltimore show, I saw two identified fakes. Someone above made the statement that coins at a show were safe because they were at a big show. Do the dealers among us agree with that or do you see tables sold to people who know not or could care less? I know there are vest pocket dealers walking the floor with good, bad and unknown coins. Have you seen them thrown out of big shows? If you were set up at a big show and had a table next to someone openly selling fakes, what would/could/should you do? I know nothing about the NYINC rules or policing but a show with many tables selling bags and bags of low end examples of highly faked items would be hard to police. I know dealers on VCoins who have been told by management to take down a fake but I do not know how common this is. At a 3-4 day show, it would seem impossible.

 

Still, that's a scenery figure on Rev, not a portrait on Obv.
Was there any Roman portrait on obv. that didn't have a specified identity? Whether a diety, ruler or someone of importance.
On other hand, figures CAN sometimes have identity too. I post a coin of marius here not long ago, where the person in quadriga on parade was a figure, but with a specified identity.

 

Heh, I've also joked about being sad because I can't collect Eid Mar denarii by dies. I'm relieved to learn I'm not the only one!

Your question about the missing S in SC is a good one. I have several thoughts, none of which I find especially persuasive.
1. A filled die can't be entirely ruled out, but I agree we usually see some trace of the missing elements no matter how gunked up the die seems to be. On the other hand, this particular S is often unusually tall and skinny; it would take less to completely obliterate it than it would a more typical S.
2. We also can't rule out a forgery, ancient or modern. It seems an inexplicable blunder for a modern forger to make, but I've seen things that are just jaw-droppingly dumb so you never know. The OP coin certainly looks ancient, but it's always hard to be sure on a coin with this much wear. As someone suggested upthread, the portrait style looks a bit "off," but I think that's most likely distortion due to wear. An ancient counterfeit is a better possibility, but I can't enthusiastically embrace that notion either. Note to the coin's new owner: I'm not really questioning the authenticity of this piece, just playing with possibilities. No need to worry!
3. The idea I like the best-- although still not all that much-- is that the missing S is simply a die engraver's error. There's a variety with no SC at all, so the engraver might've got confused about which variety he was working on; lost his place as it were. Interestingly, in Gemini a few years ago we had an example missing the C in SC (although here we can maybe see the faintest trace of the missing letter.) I'm confident that whatever explanation hold true, it will be the same for both coins. The Gemini coin, ex Randy Haviland Collection: