I purchased these 2 coins for my daughter, the Elephant lover. My research shows that they are from the Sunga Kingdom in India. circa 187-75 BC. My research also describes the coins The round coin is listed as Mitchiner ACW 4348 Obv. Elephant with rider left Rev. Three arched hill with crescent 2.47g, 15mm Sunga Kingdom, cast copper kakani coin The square as Mitchiner 4378 Obv. Elephant standing left facing tree Rev. Mountain, anchor, altar, voided cross 2.74g, 14mmX15mm Sunga Empire, AE 1/2 Karshapana Questions 1) How would you grade the coins? 2) What is the proper way to list the attribution? 3) I paid $16 for the pair, was that a fair price? I really don't care if it wasn't because they are a gift for my daughter. 4) Who is Mitchiner? Thanks
Welcome. I know less than nothing about Indian coins so it is impossible for me to add any information. I do collect Greek and Roman and there are some nice coins with elephants. TITUS AR Denarius OBVERSE: IMP TITVS CAES VESPASIAN AVG P M, laureate head right REVERSE: TRP IX IMP XV COS VIII PP, elephant walking left Struck at Rome, 80 AD 2.5g, 17mm RIC 115 PHILIP I AE Sestertius OBVERSE: IMP M IVL PHILIPPVS AVG, laureate and draped bust right REVERSE: AETERNITAS AVGG, elephant and driver walking left, SC in ex. Struck at Rome, 247-8 AD 20.6g, 28mm RIC 161a JULIUS CAESAR AR Denarius OBVERSE: Elephant advancing right. CAESAR REVERSE: Simpulum, sprinkler, axe and apex. No legend Gaul 49 BC 3.2g, 18mm CRI 9, Sydenham 1006, RRC 443/1, S 1399
HEY Bing, indian coins can go for alot so if you are interested in them you might want to do some more research on them.
I have my hands full with Greek and Roman, but thanks. Too many coins and not enough money, if you know what I mean.
Used to, in a galaxy far, far away. Only Greek and Roman, first centuries BC and AD is my real focus, but I gladly collect other Greek and Roman coins that present themselves.
Who is Mitchiner?? TO THE GOOGLES!!! He authored a big catalogue of Indo-Greek coins. I have not looked at any of them, but have used Bopearachchi for some Bactrian Coins, such as this guy: Kingdom of Bactria Menander I Soter, r. c. 165/55-130 B.C. AE Square Chalkos, 20mm x 2.29 grams Obv.: BASILEWS SWTHR MENANDROU around Elephant head right with trunk raised, wearing bell around neck Rev.: Kharosthi around Club of Herakles; monogram to left, A to right Ref.: Bopearachchi 28E, HGC 12, 197 Attributing them I believe is up to personal taste - no right or wrong way (and I'm fairly certain there have been several discussions of this on the forum) For grading, there is no 70 point scale. I believe this is another 'open to interpretation.' I use a general 'good, about fine, fine, extremely fine.' These I would place in the 'good' to maybe 'about good' category, but I can't see them in-hand For price, I don't know. If you're happy, then it was a good price. My personal view of Ancients is that the hobby reflects the time frame - not as structured, and there are fewer people to tell you what to do. This continues with medieval as well which is even less structured than ancients...
good price for those sonlarson, welcome to the dark side! I recently picked up one of these, and attributed like this... Sunga Kingdom, cast AE unit, 175-75 BC O: elephant, R: Three arched hills, crescent above. 16 mm, 2.3 g. I wasn't sure of the catalog number, so I left if off. I know there are several denominations of this coin type. Mine and yours are the same size pretty much, so probably the same reference would work for mine as well. Mitchiner is kind of a big guy for the eastern ancients. I very much want one of the coins like you cast square, I bid one a nice on and lost a while back. There are lost of great ancient elephant coins, and eastern ones are pretty affordable! some other eastern elephants I own.. I think FN was correct on grading in his post.
Well, that is just my way of cataloging my coins. Other describe differently. RIC stands for Roman Imperial Coins and is a reference most of use when we identify our coins. The CR is shorthand for Crawford, another reference used with coins mostly before the Imperial era. There are many other references we use, such as BMC for the British Museum. You'll see them from time to time.
The price seems fair for not great condition but these usually are not. I'd say VG if I had to say but I do not like letter grades without a paragraph of explanation. Mitchiner is a three volume set of huge books on Asian coins (Ancient - ACW or Ancient and Classical World to 650 AD, Non-Islamic and the rest - Islamic and modern - I don't have that one). People make fun of the set as dated in some sections but it has more coins in it than you can imagine. Many are terrible and still better than some you see. I see your square as correct at 4378 but 4348 is another square coin of the same type but not so degraded. The things were made and imitated for a couple hundred years and I'm not expert enough to separate. Your round looks like 4371-4373 to me. Mitchiner shows several specimens of many coins with no distinctions between them. chrsmat's Sunga is a 4366-4370 which is like yours but lacks the rider.
I have been tempted to test the waters of the ancints but haven't been able to wrap my arms around any era or topic. It seems so vast. I think this is a hobby where one needs to do a lot of reading before you get a feel for what to collect. Any suggestions on a general reference that touches on the different types. Took two years of latin in high school and translated the history or the world according to Ceasar. Might be interesting to search for an example of all the Ceasars. I think one would have to be very focused to collect ancients. Might just follow this forum for a while and see what its all about.
My collection is a bit eclectic. My main focus is military themes which is pretty vast. Also depictions of gods. I took the approach of buying some nice inexpensive coins first and it sorta snowballed from there.
I believe it is a mistake to seek a focus but, rather, prefer that a focus will find you. This is done by experiencing as many different types, themes and coins as you can by attending a large show or even just reading my overview pages intended to ease a beginner into the hobby. These start here: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/voc.html Of course I would be happy if you looked over any of my pages indexed here: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/ Certainly you might prefer to keep your military theme but I would keep an open mind in the first stages and try something more basic like a set of denominations or people/places you know. A set of all the Caesars is popular but frustrating since the last hundred of them get expensive and the last dozen nearly impossible. Ancients are not a pursuit to be undertaken with a blue Whitman folder like you might do with Lincoln cents.
My approach to ancients (and medieval) comes not so much from the coins, but the history behind them. I like coins which illustrate something in history, and rarely do I grab something randomly (the elephant coin above is one of those rare examples...). I'd say if you took Latin, look to the Roman coins. If Caesar is your interest, you could have a cool collection of Caesar's coins (but it would very very expensive to acquire). There are plenty who collect Republican coins on a budget, and there are loads of Late Roman Bronzes with historical significance. You might want to do some reading, but you don't necessarily need to start reading catalogues and academic dissertations. I would recommend Wayne G. Sayles, Collecting Ancient Coins, Vol. I as a good primer. He has another book dedicated solely to Roman coins too.
Excellent gift. I would rate them a bit lower than Doug and would say they are more Fine than Very Good, but for $16 that is a fair price. I can't attest to authenticity however, since I don't collect these. Doug is also correct when he says let the focus find you..........if ever. It does not matter really. Fitz is also correct, read or stumble across something in history that interests you and then look for the coins that reflect that history. I always enjoyed going to the CNG site https://www.cngcoins.com/ They lay out the coins in their auctions and coin shop in a manner that is familiar to most ancient collectors. Window shop for styles that leap out at you. Look at many before you spend any money. Pay attention to size and weight. That will tell you if you are about to purchase a large heavy coin, a small pinhead of a coin or anything in between. The pictures can be deceiving (don't buy a 9mm coin because you think it looks like it's 30mm in the photo) Once you have a coin type in mind, check for comparable coins at acsearch.info to check on past auction prices. It will give you a ball park price. Buy from a dealer with a good reputation or an auction house of fine repute. The dealers at Vcoins are a good place to start. Most of us have bought from those dealers. The auctions that you find at sixbid.com are also fairly well vetted. BUT you still need to be smart about purchases. Ask someone with some expertise for an opinion. Ask here or on another board, but always ask if you have doubts. Stay away from Ebay. I hate it. Some love it, but it is the least safe place to start buying coins for a novice. And finally don't buy a slabbed ancient. It is a waste of money to pay for the plastic. Some may argue otherwise, but it's their money to waste. Everything I told you, took me a month or two before I bought my first coin. I have yet to buy a fake, I have yet to buy a coin I didn't like and I have never lost a penny when I re-sold one (I am not considering opportunity costs from tying up that money in the coins.) Ten years later I still have no focus. I don't care and nobody else does either. I call it freestyle collecting. Collecting ancients lets you do that. And yes, as you suggest, you just took your first step into that world.................so welcome to the dark side. btw for all the elephant lovers..my Ganesha
Nice coins, hopefully she likes them. I would be. I just have 1 example myself. SUNGA DYNASTY (185-75 B.C.) Æ ½ KARSHAPANA O: Bull, elephant, swastika and staff symbols. R: Hill, cross and tree symbols. 3.1g 14 x 15mm MACW-4348
I just solved all the gift buying problems for my family. Told them to get me books on ancient coin collecting. Can't go wrong there. Gift cards from Barnes and Noble, Amazon, Half Price Books, Half.com. Load me up.
