This is my first New Thread. I do not have a way to post a photo of the entire coin. I am going to post micrographs of some parts showing its surface and edge. Some of these marks will certainly be "transferred marks" from other fakes. Without another example, I don't know which. Perhaps SwamperBob can tell us the type this is. The coin is XF+/AU with unnatural micro luster...so looks funny to those who would know. There is a ridge near the rim that cuts the outside of many denticals. The edge seems to be produced with a gang punch of several circles/blocks at a time. This make edge look overlapped in several places. Somehow this is posting as a poll. That's not what I intended.
Looks like you are all over the board on this one - looks like Machine Doubling (MD). very small wannabe cud, plating blisters, & Post Mint Damage (PMD)
Well if you got all those things going on it's a good thing - but don't use that much mag to coin search - maybe 50X max - otherwise your brain makes you see things that ain't really there!!
Many of these earlier coins from Mexico are extremely crude and can appear to be fake when they aren't. Also, many contemporary counterfeits exist. That being said, the marks between the R.F almost look like repeating depressions, which would make me think possible fake.
See my post. There is a collector called SwamperBob on coin community who wrote a book about this series. I have his book. This coin is 100% bad. I thought he was a member here and would ID which type of fake this one was. I'm going to repost this info where he can see it and reply.
When you said look at the repeating depressions I noticed some bumps that looks like blobs . Though with these pics being so large they tend to exaggerate everything . I also think from these pics it looks struck not cast . Also what book are you referring to ?
Swamperbob doesn't frequent this forum. And it would be really nice to see pictures of the entire coin as well as the edge overlaps and their positions in relation to one another. You might also want to join the Facebook group "Monedas Espanolas: Reproducciones y Falsificaciones" (Fake Spanish Coins). Many of us, including Bob, are over there.
Thanks for the info! This coin is such a poor fake that I did not bother to take a specific gravity of it. Specific Gravity: 9.75 Baaaad! Very Baaaad! Darn, I do not do facebook; however I Emailed Bob this morning with the photos. My camera is on a scope and the photos are worthless when I tried to take full shots in hand off the scope. We have a better camera at work so I will post a photo here sometime.
The response I received: The edge shot (the final of 4 pictures) shows clear evidence that the edge die used was created with a two segment punch. The punch consisted of a single circle and a single rectangle. This punch pattern shows repeated changes of alignment and a repeat in the shapes. Notice the circles are doubled on the punch so that the circles are all sightly doubled on the edge die. This doubling shows on the third photo as well. Any coins with this edge are all fakes. Some coins with this edge are Class 1 (Contemporaries) others are class 3 (Numismatic Forgeries). The difference can usually be identified in other ways. The genuine colonial edge was created with a three segment punch - the exact punch seen on matrix blocks that have survived from as early as 1772. The punch consisted of a circle a rectangle and a circle. That is the perfect configuration to generate a well aligned edge pattern. There would have been about 5 or 6 successive impressions of the die to create one edge die. The circles were used as the way to align and space the entire edge design. I covered that in my book briefly on page 85. By overlapping the circle, the rectangle remained exactly as shown on the punch and the edge of the punch never cut into the rectangle. Regarding the classification of the coin - I am now leaning toward Class 3 simply because of the way the die was likely created. Your photos show to me a clearly well made accurate depiction of a genuine coin. This is NOT typical of pre-1830 Class 1 Contemporary Counterfeits. The early type typically differ from genuine coins in the fine details. Some are better than others but NONE I have seen are perfect. In the other two pictures there is a feature typical of coins that have been copied onto dies. The dentils stop short of the edge and beyond that point there is a raised rim. That is typical of dies copied by electro-typing, impact transfer or other more modern techniques. The die image can be no bigger than the coin itself. The original dies were always larger than the planchets. The impression of the die runs OVER the edge of the planchet. Since the edge was applied to the coin before the strike there is no reason for post strike distortion of the rim. This coin is more typical of the late Class 1 or Class 2 die type. Before 1830 dies could not be created directly from coins EXCEPT by casting. Before 1830 casting was not very well done. The material used for making casts was limited to "green sand", clay sand molds etc.. The introduction of plaster of Paris dates to about this same time period (I am doing research on this point). So how an image could be transferred in 1830 is a key point but one clear point is that a coin image could not be transferred to a die directly. 1830 is before electro-typing was developed. It is before impact transfer was used. In the case of YOUR coin - I would now define it as a LATE (post 1830) Class 1 (under 800 fine coin). These late Class 1 coins like all Class 2 coin can be made with transferred images using post 1830 technologies (to dies or molds). Class 2 coins are full weight or near full weight silver (over 800 fine). Class 2 coins could use fantasy images but rarely do. They typically use fairly accurate representations of coins coupled with a high silver content. They were made in the UK, US and China for sure but likely also in other locations. So as of now - even though the density and weight looked good for early Class 1 - the design technology, edge and dentils all point to a later time period. Bob Much of this information is in: Counterfeit Portrait eight-Reales, The Un-real Reales by Robert Gurney I will post a photo of the entire coin as soon as our photographer comes in next week.
