Characteristics of cleaned coins

I believe the sulfur or other chemicals in the paper from the last page of the album caused the black surface condition.

 

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Well, "done right" aside the part where it's usually silly to expect 150 year old silver to be blast-white.

 

Please allow a new member to take sides: SuperDave and GDJMSP know their stuff.

It can be very difficult to comment on a coin with any hope of accuracy with a picture alone. See Coinman1234. Because of this provable fact, in my opinion there is no indication (except for the slab label)that the 1859 is not a dark original coin with some bag marks circled in the field. There is also no indication the coin has been dipped. Dipped coins are not this color unless it was done some time in the past and the coin toned. There is no indication that the toning is not natural.

Halos around a coin's relief can signify a few things:

A. Chemical alteration or residue that did not reach the protected area next to the relief.
B. A circulated coin with mint luster in protected areas such as the 1878 and what looks the same on the 1859.
C. Some form of mechanical abrasion.

The actual coin needs to be examined in hand so it can be tipped and rotated in the light. It is a good bet that the 1859 is hairlined from old improper cleaning that is hidden by the toning and not seen in the photo.

Some further thoughts:

1. Cleaning a coin properly implies that it is undetectable. That is considered conservation. Anyone who decides a vintage coin has been cleaned in the past with no visible evidence under magnification for proof is free to do so.

2. A properly conserved coin will not look "dipped."

3. Conserving (properly dipping) a coin several times will not change its look; however sometime between the first several times and the time your coin dissolves - it will show.

4. Just because a PCGS code of 92 indicates a "harshly, abrasive cleaning," it does not mean the actual coin is harshly cleaned. All the major grading services will slab coins w/market acceptable cleaning because it is a matter of degree. This is a very important concept. Holding a coin under running water is a form of chemical cleaning. It goes from there all the way to an acid etch. Mechanical cleaning is the same. Brushing a coin with a camel's hair brush all the way to extreme whizzing. The important thing to remember is to look for any evidence of an unnatural surface. Many coins are ruined when they are dried improperly!

5. Lightly hairlined coins can be found in detail, and straight-grade holders. The grading services would rather straight grade a coin if possible.

6. Dents on the 1859 coin are not a reason to call it cleaned.

Must get back to work. So sorry Spencer will not be with us anymore

 

Thanks guys! I.m learning a lot from all of your posts. When I return home I will post some of my Morgan's to see what you think.

 

As for what the TPG's see or don't see I cannot answer that, however, I personally know a large dealer who specializes in 'white' silver coins. Over the years he has learned what he can 'dip' and what should be left alone. I also know that when he sends a coin to PCGS or NGC he has very likely worked his magic on it. I can comfortably say that 90% of his submissions have been at the least dipped. And, I can say that 95% of what he submits gets slabbed with no buts. There are a lot of collectors and investors eager to purchase his coins. For the most part, I also do not believe this damages these coins.

 

Dip most assuredly damages every single coin it's used on. It's acid, and works by eating the top layer of metal off the coin, permanently. It's just not detectable if you do it correctly.

 

I don't disagree that acid does what acid does. I should have been clear that it doesn't always seem to damage the coins in the eyes of the TPG'ers.

 

Thank you for taking that politely; I drew the distinction more for less-informed readers than for yourself.

 

Is acid the most common way to dip white silver coins such as morgan's? What are some other dipping agents used that won't damage the coins value? SuperDave? Copper56?

 

Many of the great collectors of the past, the ones who's pedigreed coins command substantial premiums wanted nothing to do with nice shiny coins, they want only "Original Skin" coins with no signs of enhancement.

 

Maybe those great collectors knew something we don't. It is interesting that not too many years ago 'cleaning' coins was considered completely and totally acceptable in the numismatic community, today we look at the methods they used as barbaric. I often wonder if the methods we use today, dipping and "professional conservation" will also be looked at a couple decades from now as completely barbaric. How do we know that a 'Dipped Coin' today will not be the "Cleaned Coin" 20 years from now?

 

Also, how do we know that the supposed "safe" slabs of today won't start leaching out at some point, making the TPG coin complete anathema to the future collector.

 

Since I have been collecting, I have seen four periods of bright coins best, toning best, bright best, and now toning best. Will this pattern be repeated sometime in the future?

IMO conservation will never be frowned upon because conservation is a good thing - unlike adding details to large cents or tooling ancients - treatments that were considered "acceptable" by many at one time.

 

Now go back and re-read all of Doug's posts.


Then read them again

 

The term "dip" in numismatics has a precise meaning - the use of thiourea solution to strip the first layer of molecules off of the coin.

 

My grand kids 30 years from now, "So wait, your saying that back in the olden days people used to dip their coins in ACID?........ Your kidding, right grandpa?"