How much off-centering can you handle?

Once, when I was new to the hobby, I bought this JC:



JULIUS CAESAR AR silver denarius
North Africa, 47-46 BC
Obverse: diademed head of Venus right
Reverse - Aeneas carrying Palladium, and his father Anchises on his shoulder
RCV 1402. 18mm, 3.8g

My question is - how much does off-centering detract from a coin's appeal and value?
And does it matter much, since we're only missing Venus' shoulder?

I still love the coin. But generally this sort of thing is frowned upon, right?
A new JC (this time a portrait JC) is on Night-time Greg's ever-expanding shopping list.

 

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For me it is about eye appeal and your coin has lots of it. It is certainly a coin that I would buy if I was in the market. I would consider the whole coin. First it is a coin of JC and this would have an impact on my decision. Next, that reverse is excellent and adds appeal to the coin. Also the lettering is very very nice and the name of Caesar is very clear. In addition the toning is also attractive. All of this adds up to an attractive coin. I personally am not that bothered by the off centered head of venus. Others might be, but that is up to their own preferences.

Please see the coin below. Yes, it is worn. Yes, it is off entered and the flan is not round. Also, some of the legend on the reverse is missing. Is this still an attractive coin? IMHO yes it is and that is why I bought it. I was looking for a portrait denarius of JC and this was in an auction. I also know that it is a posthumous issue and has bankers marks. However, it is still a portrait denarius of JC with a very nice portrait.

I have always tried to buy coins that speak to me. Others may not like them but my collection=my preferences.

 

i like it GH, the reverse is great, all the head of venus is on flan. details are nice. if most of the face of the obverse was off flan it would bother me, this doesn't much at all...if any.

this coin bugged me a bit with the centering, i really wanted one with the whole lion..but i decided to go for this one missing the tip of his nose. it does have most of the limb, which most of the ones with the whole head a missing.

 

It looks good and doesn't really bother me, since you still get the entire head,
The strike is similar to my Alexander Balas Drachm which is off center Although i do miss out on his chin.

 

Same here.
Full centering would of course be better, but nothing on your coin detracts from a high eye appeal. As long as the devices are present there's nothing wrong. The same off centering on the reverse would have been another story. And the unperfection makes it more lively. The other examples shown are on the same line

The following one is just right, to my eyes at least. A bit more of off centering would have been a disaster. As it is I got it for a very good price in comparison to what a plain one would have set me back


L. Aemilius Lepidus Paullus Rome mint, 62 BC
PAVLLUS - LEPIDVS {CONCORDIA] diademed and draped bust of concordia right
Trophy with Lepidus Paullus on the right and three captives on the left (king Perseus of Macedon and his sons). TER above and PAVLLVS at exergue
4.00 gr
Ref : RCV # 366, RSC, Aemilia # 10

Q

 

I agree with the others. Greg, your coin is very appealing despite the off-center obverse. In its favor, the entire head is present.

Casual observation of off-center portrait appeal and prices makes me think this is the general order of devaluation. 1 has the least adverse effect on appeal and 8 the greatest.

1. Back of head slightly off flan or significantly off-center in that direction
2. Top of head slightly off flan or off in that direction
3. (or tied with 2) Chin/neck slightly off flan or off-center in that direction
4. Nose or face slightly off flan or off in that direction
5, 6, 7, 8: repeat the above ranking, but with more of the head off flan.

This ranking may not hold if the coin has legends, particularly if the legends are a significant part of the coin's desirability. Roman portrait coins, especially higher-priced coins such as JC or Otho, have more value and appeal if the name is on the flan.

This is of course only my opinion .

 

It sounds spot on to me!

 

I agree with everyone else. Nice coin. Interesting coin. It certainly doesn't bother me.

 

I see many Roman Republican coins that are distractingly (and annoyingly) off centered... yours is not one of these, and is very appealing, indeed.

Given that some issues seem to have more centering issues that others, I think whether or not an off-centered example is going to affect its value also depends on how off-centered the majority of that specific issues' examples are.

But that said, so many other factors go into any consideration of value when it comes to ancients, the most significant one possibly being personal preference.

 

I like the OP coin a lot for all the stated reasons.

I think TIFs ranking makes sense.

 

It is not a matter of amount as much as direction and what was lost. Some legends are more important than others if their loss makes the coin unidentifiable. Noses need to be on flan more than do the backs of the head. Both sides of my Neopolis stater are off center in the better way leaving the face of the nymph and the man headed bull with their important sides intact. Many well centered examples of these have lost their bull horns. Mine is not mint state but it sure is 'full horn'.


On the other hand, the Alexander tetradrachm would me much more appealing had the nose been saved at the expense of the back of the head. It is not the amount off that matters.


My worst centering coin is an Athenian 1/4 obol. Al that is left is part of the helmet. When people say they want a 'full crest' coin they are assuming that you also get the face. I really wanted this denomination but reselling it will be next to impossible.

For comparison, the one below has about perfect centering for this type.
http://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=463119
No one will mourn the tip of the chin.

Below are three coins from the same obverse die of Septimius Severus, Emesa mint with the rare IICO ending obverse legend. The middle one is off center losing the important letters but is proven as what it is by the other two. It hardly would count as a rarity were it not for the fact that people like me who care about die links can be forgiving.

 

I understand that with ancients, some of this off-centering is unavoidable. It would drive me crazy, however, to have lost some important design elements. I'm just starting out in the ancients, trying to figure out what I like - but I've already realized that I'm willing to wait for a well centered piece. Many of the coins in this thread are attractive, but losing important features of the coins would irk me.

 

Yah again, I'd have to see the example before I made a blanket judgement, but I think you dudes are all talking the same sorta thing ...

=> a coin can be slightly off-center as long as it still has the majority of the good things and must have a few mandatory things

Bad Example #1

Hey, I love this coin, but it is a great example of an awesome coin that I should have probably passed-on and waited for the snout-version!!






"please" don't tell my coin that I've had 2nd-thoughts (thanks)

 

Here's one I wish I'd waited on. At the summer ANA show in Chicago, my primary goal was to come home with one of the two types of Mussidius Longus "Sewer Goddess" denarii. I asked almost every dealer present and Barry Murphy knew someone who had one. He acquired it the next day and sold it to me. The centering is bad on both sides but it appeared to be the only one at the show and there were none currently on Vcoins or upcoming auctions. Two days later, another appeared at the show and it was the Sol obverse. I bought it as well. Its centering isn't great but it is somewhat better than the Concordia and it is generally better than most Sol Cloacina examples.

Sometimes it's hard to be patient. This year I found a much better Concordia. It was much less expensive too. Oh well. I bought it thinking I'd sell the first one. Hah. The little lies we tell ourselves...

These Cloacina coins aren't plentiful and most have centering issues, so all in all I don't feel too regretful about having all three .


Moneyer issues of Imperatorial Rome
L. Mussidius Longus, 42 BCE
AR denarius, Rome mint
Concordia/shrine of Venus Cloacina


Moneyer issues of Imperatorial Rome
L. Mussidius Longus, 42 BCE
AR denarius, Rome mint
Concordia/shrine of Venus Cloacina


Moneyer issues of Imperatorial Rome
L. Mussidius Longus, 42 BCE
AR denarius, Rome mint
Concordia/shrine of Venus Cloacina

 

So how does it happen that sometimes the reverse is spot on centered but the obverse is way off? The hammer made it wobble? I don't get it!

 

The reverse is great and since I like female portraits I think the portrait is lovely. I would welcome it to my collection.

I have a fair share of off center coins & most of the time they dont bother me. I agree with others that I would rather have the back of the head partly gone then anything with with the face or nose no matter how cheap.

 

For many manufacturing techniques, the dies were not fixed in their positions. The obverse die was on (or part of) the anvil, and the reverse die was hastily placed on the flan. If the reverse die was not placed squarely on the flan, the reverse would be off-center proportionately but the obverse would be centered. If the flan wasn't placed perfectly on the anvil, both sides would likely be off but it is possible for just the obverse to be off. If the hammer struck off-center, the strike would be uneven.

 

Still one of my favorites.

Augustus Caesar AR Denarius
Lugdunum mint
3.7 grams

 

Beautiful portrait on that one MM. Very nice.