ABUSE OF THE TERM "MD": A WARNING

Just a general observation: Machine Doubling is such a joke of a misnomer.

I had to test my theory and see how people follow in herds and use "MD" constantly when looking at coins.

A while back, I sent images off a guys site who was selling Doubled Dies... a well known fella EVERYONE knows. I sent those images to him, the site owner, and I asked if he was interested. He immediately threw the "MD" line at me.

"Nope....those are Machine doubled....considered damage...." the whole enchilada folks use.

Then I told him it was HIS OWN coin he said was a DDO on his site. LOL. Boy did he squirm!!

Yes, MD exists, but I think MD is a code word for "I don't know" sometimes, and using it makes people feel special or prevent over-population of a coin they own or are selling. The industry might need to take a look at the definition and usage.

Just my first-hand on the ground/in the trenches experience.

 

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I would have to disagree that the term “Machine Doubling” is over used. If anything, it is just the opposite. When searching eBay, I have never seen a listing of “Machine Doubling” and the coin was actually a “Doubled Die” but on the other hand I have seen too many listings for “Doubled Dies” that were only “Machine Doubling” or “Shelve Doubling” (whatever term you want to use).

I have also seen coins that have both, a “Doubled Die” with evidence of “Machine Doubling” on it. An example of this can be seen here: http://www.varietyvista.com/1973SDDR003 half.htm

Once you understand what “Machine Doubling” is, you will understand that it is not a code word for “I don’t know” but will understand what part of the strike was transferred from the die versus what happened during the striking process.

 

I actually see it the other way around. Too many folks use the term Doubled die when it is only MD.

 

I don't think that was a very nice thing to do.
I understand your thoughts on the MD issue but you are not going to get too many people to agree with you.

 

It's not a question of "nice" -- did the dealer misrepresent the coin, yes or no?

 

True..that's a good question

Hey Rob..show us a picture of that Not a DD MD

 

When I started collecting coins DECADES ago, all this hand-wringing over little blivets the size of an ant's kidney-stones didn't exist. You had the true, impressive 1955 Double-Die Lincoln, and that was about it, LOL.

 

I haven't been collecting for even a decade but only the impressive errors catch my eye. The others are too minor to interest me.

 

I don't believe the term MD is over used. The chance of MD is much greater than DD. I do believe that a lot of people don't know the real difference and that some dealers will miss-represent MD as DD to make a little more money. I also believe the majority of dealers are honest.

To contact the dealer and tell him it was his own coin and take delight in him squirming was rudeness you your part.

It would be nice if you posted the coin in question for us to view and judge for ourselves. You are using terms, no dates and no examples. Please provide.

 

The problem comes when people see something on a coin and jump to DDO. They need to learn what hub doubling looks like, and what machine doubling looks like. I don't think its overused - I think hub doubling is not understood by the majority of people who post on the internet.

 

If it is not as obvious as the nose on your face, I'm not even interested in it. Why are people so desperate, that they look at minuscule marks and think they just discovered the coin of the century? Is it something to do when you are bored? However, it does make this dealer's judgement questionable, on this and maybe other things, as well. Sad but true.

 

Individual interest in minor doubled dies has nothing to do with the fact that if you don't understand the minting process as it relates to doubled dies and machine/strike/shelf/ejection doubling well enough to distinguish between them, you ought not be throwing the terms about as though you do.

When someone doesn't know the difference, they're more likely to say die doubling, because there's no money in machine doubling.

Without seeing the picture that was shown to the dealer, all I can say about the incident above is that the dealer has probably blocked the OP.

 

As a variety collector, when I see MD, I immediately think Master Die, not Mechanical Doubling or Machine Doubling. An example from the CONECA Master Listings, 1964 MDO-001, Designation: MD-PR-1-O-II-C. I use the abbreviation MDD (Machine Damage Doubling). I think this best describes this type of doubling.
Larry Nienaber

 

Everybody is talking about it ,but no one is showing examples of the two. That might help people learn such as myself!number 1is MD,number two is hub doubling

 

Nice examples Billy! Is that 1983P DDR-002 yours? Very nice if it is! That is a great example because I believe that die would be an easier doubled die to confuse with machine damage. I don't know this for a fact as I haven't found that one yet, but a lot of Lincolns have similar machine damage on the O in ONE. Thanks for the examples!

 

You just stumbled across another term and accidentally misused it. I think you meant to say the 2nd coin was die doubling caused by multiple impressions from the hub being out of registration. Hub doubling refers to doubling on the working hub itself from the multiple impressions it received, which will, for raised design elements, resemble strike doubling somewhat.

 

Here is an example of MDD and a Doubled Die on the same coin, a 50c 67 BS DDO-001. Note the D of GOD.
Larry Nienaber

 

That bottom one is strike doubling, too. Who identified that coin as hub doubling?

 

Very good!

 

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