can they prevent production of doubled dies?

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One thing to consider is we don't know how many doubled dies they catch and condemn before they ever go into production

I would find that rather surprising due to the number of machines they would need. My estimates (using 2012 production figures) is that Philadelphia would need about 100 machines to keep up with their daily production die requirements for their circulating coinage. Denver would need a similar number. Then there would be the extra ones needed in Philadelphia for the production of the dies for San Francisco and West Point. Call it maybe 240 to 250 machines to produce what can be done by a few hubbing presses. Yes I can see direct cutting of the hubs, but direct cutting of all the dies is foolish.

 

Yes, there are scale issues, but it's already being done for proofs and ASE's generally. Probably gold bullion coins, too.

 

I don't know that you guys against modern "doubled dies" are thinking this through, quite honestly. I just went back over the last 36 months of threads in this forum. On average, rounded to the 100ths, 18.15 threads per day are about modern "doubled dies." If we were to stop calling these "doubled dies," we're going to lose 44.09% of the membership, overnight!

 

this is what Wikipedia has for a definition:Doubled die is a term in numismatics used to refer to doubling in the design elements of a coin.

does it go on to describe how original doubled dies were made as you have stated? yes it does. WHAT is a doubled die.... and HOW it was made appears that it might not be the same. the definition is clear. unless I am reading it wrong

 

Bryan, look out your window. Do you see that young kid going by on his bicycle with that iPhone in his hand? 15-minutes ago he posted the start-up instructions for a Boeing 747 on Wikipedia.

 

ok I see your point...run with me a far fetched theory. maybe...just maybe, whoever originated the term "doubled die" was talking about exactly just that "doubling in the design elements of a coin." I am trying to learn specifics but I don't have tunnel vision and see things from more than one side. I don't think the term was brought about to describe how the doubling was produced but to describe the die after the process was done if that makes sense? the thing that I have hard time understanding is that if it is not a doubled die then why do respected names in the numismatic community refer to them as such? and why has no one told them they were wrong? can anyone provide a link that says it is not a doubled die? or is this just peoples opinions?

 

Mechanical doubling is physically different than doubled die, in both how it was "produced" and how it manifests itself (i.e. appears to our eye as it appears in the form of an actual coin).

I could be wrong though so I defer to more learned persons.

 

Actually you can produce a doubled die in the single hubbing process. If the die is hubbed and the pressure on the press is released and then hubbing is again instigated on the die. Sorta like when someone tightens a bolt. I am not saying this is the cause of the so-called doubled dies on modern coinage.

 

it's not a matter of who I believe and I don't. by no means am I trying to be oppositional or say you are wrong. I am just trying to learn. who made the term doubled die though? was it an everyday person that first discovered it? or was it the mint? if the mint didn't first come up with the term can the rightly say it's not. where would I find such information that says the mint says it's not and has their explanation as why not? or other threads about the subject that I could read further? when did they start the single hub process?

 

Actually it is single squeeze hubbing. Coins are struck and dies are squeezed. The forces, pressure and the manner it is applied are different.

 

I appreciate you taking the time share your information. it's hard to accept EVERYONES word as some probably think they know what they are talking about. far and few...but there are those probably. I have really only been roll searching for 5 years so where you have 55 years it makes it a little easier starting from the beginning and moving forward as I am starting modern and trying to disregard what I thought I learned to be accurate and then having to go backwards to the beginning. in the end when my facts accurate it will be worth it. thanks again.

 

It really doesn’t matter whether modern doubled dies are actually doubled dies or not. The general coin collecting community currently recognizes them as such, so at this point in time that is what they are. Just as the coin collecting community generally accepts the 1937-D 3 legged Buffalo Nickel, 1922 no D Cent, the 1982 O/S Morgan Dollar and other such coinage as die varieties when more than likely technically they are not does not diminish their value or demand as it now stands.

Coin collecting is a dynamic hobby with perceptions and points of view constantly changing. As it stands today die doubling produced using the single squeeze process are doubled dies but tomorrow that may or may not be the case.

Still even at that – single squeeze doubling does produce a unique characteristic that allows attributing the coin to the specific working die that struck it. In most cases from that die’s first coinage strike to it’s last. This I do not think will change with time.

But as I stated in an earlier post in this thread. From my collecting perspective the true value of a doubled die isn’t the fact the die is doubled, it is the fact that the doubling is a unique characteristic that allows a person to attribute the coin to the specific working die that struck it.

 

https://archive.org/web/

The Internet Archive has been indexing pretty much all web pages that have existed from 1996-present. If you have a dead link that used to work, pop it into the IA's Wayback Machine and chances are you'll find one, if not multiple, snapshots of the page. It's an incredibly useful resource.

—Dan

 

OK, it's time to put gas on the fire. How about the 2015 Homestead quarter. There are several double die varieties that center around the water pump. The most extreme example is the Wexler DDR 004. I have several and they all have the same die indicators so they should have all come from the same die. It's definitely die doubling and not machine doubling. To me they look intentional as it is one specific element that is doubled. Other elements around it show no doubling what so ever. Looks like a mint employee got bored. Or did the mint purposely add the double elements to encourage people to hoard them or buy additional mint sets. Since a quarter only cost the mint a few cents to produce they can make a nice return on those that are pulled from circulation.

This same coin has multiple different die chips and cuds, but only from the Philadelphia mint. Denver doesn't seem to have this problem.

 

I can't see the mint intentionally making errors to increase sales. what they would make would probably be insignificant to what people that sell the errors would make. do you really believe that they would want people making a small fortune off THEIR money. especially being there are no taxes paid on ebay sales unless you make $20,000 in a calendar year? and yes I got that dollar amount from ebay themselves.

also, I have D mint homestead quarters with pre-die break depressions. it looks like it might be a decent interior break if found.

 

If not intentional how did it happen?