"Cleaned" coins--how much of a loss?

I picked up these two dimes from a local dealer relying on his expertise for accurate grading, both came back "improperly cleaned". How much of a loss is likely on these and is there any hope of getting them in a straight MS holder by letting them tone in one of those old brown envelopes?



http://i.imgur.com/fZJKKnt.jpg

 

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Did you buy them raw and submit them yourself? If so, have you discussed this with the dealer?

Chris

 

Most dealers, including me, do not guarantee grades on raw coins. I have had some go from cleaned to straight grade, and the other way, when re-submitted.

 

Personally, I think some people are way too fussy on whether or not some coin had some, remote trace of a touch up job years ago. I have seen numerous coins that were dipped, soaked, and even lightly polished that look just fine to me. The only cleaning I dislike is from abrasive techniques. Your "cleaned" coins look fine to me.

 

He sold both coins as MS63 and when encountered Ed was uninterested in any exchange or refund, I probably would have considered a 40% loss as worth taking considering all the trouble and potential expense in trying to get them into straight holders.

 

I don't see how anyone could tell they were cleaned by just looking at the pictures.
This why it is so hard for me to pull the trigger when buying on line. And if you buy a TPGed coin, I can't put them into a folder with out cracking it open.

 

The reverse on the Barber dime has a slight, hazy look to it, ditto the obverse on the Seated dime. This is typical of dipping, or wiping.

 

I would agree that a dealer selling raw coins should not have to guarantee a grade. However, improperly cleaned is not a GRADE, its a defect in the coin. Therefor, its fuzzier to me whether the dealer has an obligation here. On one hand its like a fake in that its not what it was sold as, and that is a collectible coin. OTOH, TPG's can be persnickety, and I would understand if dealers disagreed with them.

So sorry, I am not clear myself what the dealer's responsibility is. OTOH, I know what YOUR responsibility should be OP, and that would be to learn WHY the TPG is calling it improperly cleaned so you can avoid this in the future.

 

They were bought raw as MS63 at a show. They could conceivably grade but real toning takes a long time in the brown holder with sulfur still present to react with the silver. Ed Doran says he buys coins he likes the look of, and attends a lot of shows. You would think people's grading skills would get sharper in time. And clearly I need to be sharper too but there is nothing like seeing hundreds of coins on a daily basis that are fully original.

 

These coins are valuable, but why judge them on monetary value alone, especially the view coming from a TPG? If you like them, then give them a place in your collection. If not, why did you buy? Reminds me of US Mint coin flippers. Trying to buy at a certain price, and then quickly turn around and sell for a big profit. Is that coin collecting? Or is it just a business venture? If you cannot find what you want online, then travel to shows, and view the coin in hand, and talk to the dealer. Otherwise, enjoy your purchases, and quit whinning! They are very nice coins! Cleaned or not, they are hard to come by.

 

in honesty you should always expect a loss, did you buy them a lcs , so be cautious next time buying from him.. id suggesst you dont buy raw, or tell him to submitt the coins to be graded then reimburse him for the grading fees once they come back.. cause if he's saying there flat 63 or such , technically he can say they are uncirculated ,hes not lieing ,

 

The obverse of the Barber shows on outer ring of tarnish, which should also appear on the outer portion of the reverse. There is none on the reverse, so....the reverse side was cleaned, or the obverse side was laid up and came into contact with a tarnishing substance, and the reverse side did not. But, just from the two photos I would say the Barber SEEMS to have been cleaned. A great coin, but the differences between the two sides raises my eyebrows. I would not have bought this coin in the first place, IF the object was to collect.

 

course not good business but, this is why we learn to grade ourselves..lol

 

I would contact the coin grading service you used and inquire as to why it was graded improperly cleaned. You would learn from this and take that info. back to the dealer. While I'm sure the seller will not guarantee the coin's grade, he should honor the condition of the coin. If he doesn't, move on, learn and find another dealer.

 

If they came back as MS64 or 65, would you have given him extra money?

 

I don't know any dealer who sells raw coins a grade or two over what they are where it matters; it is almost always the other way. And if collectors are just looking for honesty in pricing and grading then they should find those who they are comfortable with. I recently accepted a return from a collector months after he got it from me simply because he was not happy with it. Nearly full refund except for transaction costs. The hobby gets negatively impacted by dishonesty and those who do not stand behind their merchandise.

 

If you want to buy a MS63 coin, buy one already graded. That was his opinion. You must have agreed since you bought it and had it graded. Looks like you were both wrong.

 

I understand, but OTOH how would you feel if a collector kept buying things from you raw, and only returned it if the TPG graded it lower than he thought? A LOT of collectors used to do that, basically risk free cherrypicking from honest dealers. I do not blame dealers reacting to that and saying no returns anymore.

 

That has happened to me before, and I say in my auctions "no guarantees, other than genuine!".

 

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