Registry Sets Flawed System

I recently got into the registry set thing, sorta (I'm only doing it for one set really).

As I was entering a coin I realized there is no proof of ownership required. That got me wondering if someone I am "competing" against (for best set) could be entering coins they don't own. All they would have to do is search past (or current) auctions to get the certification number. Assuming the actual owner hasn't registered the coin themself of course.

[EDIT: I realize this is something most people wouldn't do, but there are these ultra competitive freaks out there that would ruin it for everyone]

I also wonder if PCGS gets requests or complaints from actual owners that someone else has falsely registered ownership of their coin.

I must say, realizing this has completely taken the wind out of the sails for me on registry set building. I would hope TPG's fix this and come up with some way to verify ownership. I don't know how but the way it is now is flawed, in my opinion.

 

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Good point. Maybe I am just not competitive enough in my hobby. I simply do not care what others think of what I collect, how I collect, or why I collect. However, many people must because those registry sets sure have driven a lot of activity and prices.

 

When entering coin in the set registries (both at NGC and PCGS) people occasionally find their coins are already registered to someone else's set. This happens for many reasons... the former owner could have just forgotten to take the coin out of their set... or even that the former owner has passed away. A quick email w/ a current photo of the coin always gets that cleared up.

But I would guess that it is rare that someone just entering in numbers to fake a registry set... especially if you're trying to fake a high-end set. While it's possible to do, you'd be figured out pretty quickly.

 

you cant get the certification numbers of the coins off of others registry atleast on ngc thats the way it is

 

Exactly. You would like to think that the registry was created so that collectors could organize and keep track of their collection, but TPG's did them in a way where you could see others collection and how they compare to yours. Smart of them obviously. It can also make it fun and make your investment (in time and money) more worthwhile, but not the way it's currently set up without some kind of verification. When anyone can enter anything it can work against you.

 

The Registries are pure vanity, and a brilliant ploy on the part of the TPG's due to the competitive atmosphere they engender. Erroneous entries are usually oversights, and there's no real way to guarantee accuracy unless the participant sheds more anonymity than the average collector would prefer to.

 

I mostly agree. It's mostly a vanity thing. However it affects all of us as collectors whether we like it or not. It might not affect those that don't actively compete on the registry as much, but it still affects them. What affects the hobby as a whole affects each participant, one way or another.

Prices are being driven by these registry sets and so even if you don't have any coins registered the value of yours coins (or ones you want to purchase) are affected.

If you are one of those that wants to think you are above registry sets and those that have some sort of vanity complexion, then by all means continue living in your bubble world. By "you" in the previous sentence I don't mean you quoted poster. I mean you as in anyone who is reading this.

 

I feel sorry for someone who has to cheat to enjoy their hobby.

 

I'm not so sure that high prices are detrimental to numismatics as a whole, and have no personal beef with the Registry system. I'd absolutely use it if I collected something compatible. I tend to agree with CAC's assertion that the quantity of dogs in slabs has artificially depressed the value-in-grade equation, anyway.

Vanity is not always a fault.

 

Sorry but I cannot see how this flows. Millions of collectors enjoy coin collecting, and their collecting has absolutely nothing to do with Registry sets. Yes, prices for the very highest graded pieces are being affected by this, but not most coins. Even if I were still collecting US coins, most of mine would not be "top pop" and therefor I do not see how their prices are being affected.

Therefor, I take issue with you saying the rest of us who simply do not wish to compete as a hobby are living in a "bubble world". It seems to me there are a heck of a lot more of us who don't do registries than there are those who do. Who is in the bubble?

 

This is the 1st time I have heard of people falsifying coins for their registry, but I can believe it. I think reg. sets are really, really fun, even though I agree with medoraman. But, there is competition in all walks of life. I suppose we can't avoid it. Ha, ha!

 

People started creating false registries shortly after they were first created In the early years a lot of the top registry collections were made up of collections that had many "stolen" certification numbers. That was why people started hiding the numbers in ebay auctions and sellers would create fake registries and enter the coins they had for sale in them to keep others from stealing the numbers and putting them into their sets. When they would sell a coin they would remove it from their false registry. Sometimes they would forget and the buyer would then have to go through the TPG to get the coin into their set.

Typically they would have to contact the TPG and the TPG would contact the owner of the other registry set to find out who actually owned the coin. If the other person didn't respond then they would put the coin into the new set.

There are probably still some sets. competitive and non-competitive, that contain stolen numbers.

 

I have no definitive information or data that proves how much prices are or aren't affected by registry sets. I also don't have any data to show whether most active collectors participate or don't participate in registry sets. Perhaps you do since you seem pretty certain that most collectors don't.

In any case, I don't think it is unreasonable to think that prices across all grades are affected because of registry sets. I agree that top pops are most affected however lower graded coin's value could very well be affected because it's simply not a top pop or not near top pop. How many times have we seen a big dealer sell coins at a loss because the grade came in lower than the dealer hoped. So the strategy for these dealers becomes hope to hit on a few very high/top grades to sell them to registry bozos at ridiculous prices and then just recoupe what they can on the ones that missed. That affects the market price for lower grades. And this works all the way down the line.

 

My only data comes from the fact most coin collectors collect state quarters, Lincoln cents, and other circulated coins. Your example points basically to a limited number of collectors, those who collect slabbed modern coins. Sure, amongst slabbed modern coins Registry Sets are having a ton of impact, both on 70 and 69 pricing like you said. However, most of the world does not collect slabbed modern US coins. Believe it or not, millions are coin collectors of world coins, circulated US coins, even ancient coins. None of those markets have anything to do with Registry Sets. So, if you wish to preface it and mainly talk about modern US collectors who collect slabbed coins, sure I could agree with you sir. But if you are any other kind of collector outside that narrow definition, I do not believe you should accuse them of living in a bubble. There are lots of ways to enjoy this hobby, and if this works for you then great. It simply does nothing for me and millions like me, and we are not "deficient" because we simply do not wish to collect like this.

 

A registry set competition for ancient coins? now there's an idea! Ha, ha!

 

Did I really need to preface my post with 'I'm talking about slabbed coins' only? I mean registry coins can only be slabbed coins, right?

Not arguing here, but perhaps you should have prefaced your post with 'I'm not affected because I only collect raw coins'. Even still one could argue that raw coin prices might be affected by the slabbing market, but not something I would waste my time on.

Also, registry sets exist for world coins.

 

This is the part I am objecting to sir. If we think ill of the new Registry Set thing, we are somehow living in a bubble? I have collected the exact same way for about 40 years now, changing only what I collect. I don't think I am in a bubble because I refuse to change my collecting habits and hand over a pile of money to someone I truly do not care what their opinion of my coins are.

Again, now if I collected only modern slabbed coins of course I should be aware of the affect of such Registry Sets on prices of coins I collect, but short of that I do not believe I am "living in a bubble world" by happily ignoring such "stuff".

 

Maybe a solution can be TPG's place a chip in the slab that has an encrypted code and in order to enter the coin in a registry the chip has to be scanned while connected and logged in to registry. The collector can buy a scanner or get it scanned by someone who does. At least this way the person entering the coin physically has it.

 

This might sound like a joke, but I'd be willing to lease the registry rights on my slabbed coins. I would still own and physically possess the coin but I'd allow someone else to enter the coin into their registry set as if they were the owner (for a fee of course).

Sounds crazy I know, but is it really crazier than people paying 5x (or more) for a coin one grade higher? My leasing program is actually more sane and economical! Give it a try today! If you contact me today I'll even throw in a second certification number for half off!! Wow what a great deal!!!

 

Oh and it's certainly not as crazy as someone paying to have a sticker put on a slab.