Dishonest Seller

ditto!

I am kind of lost in this area and she has helped me out a number of times.
Thanks, Lea.

 

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I have to say that I am surprised by some of the post in this thread. Lets change this around a little to you that have no clue about medals but profess to be experts in all things coin related. Lets say that YOU purchased a 1909SVDB on "name your auction site", you get the coin.. you notice that the coin has been plated so, you get out your trusty $5 scale and the weight is off by an alarming amount after double checking the weight in the redbook that is. You send the coin back to the seller because you "Know" that its a fake because you know the series, the weight, and that its not right.. Then this seller relist the item back on the auction site and makes no mention of the facts that you have presented.. How would you feel about that seller? Trust me I get my share of "experts" at coin shows. Had an old man tell me I was a thief because I told him that his 1964 Peace Dollar was NOT in fact a real 1964 that it was an overstrike, it was a fantasy piece made by Daniel.. He told me hogwash, I have had this since the 60's in my safe deposit box. I showed him the die gouge which is a tale tell sign.. but.. He insisted.. So I told him good luck, hope he finds a buyer. Do I see myself as an expert on coins? Not at all, I have only been in the hobby a short time, about 50 years. But I do know a few things. I also know enough to see who here knows what they are talking about and those that think they do.

The opening poster has my respect in the medal arena. Would I trust her judgement on a Large Cent? Nope.. But if she told me a medal was fake, that's all I need to hear. Keep your head up Lea.

 

Thanks, @Jim M .

 

+ 1 Couldn't of said it better myself!

 

With all due respect, ma'am; who are you to this person, and why should he simply take your word for it? Did you not think providing him with the result of your research was the reasonable course of action? Perhaps if you had simply provided evidence of your conclusions, he would have taken the claim of someone completely unknown to him more seriously.

You may be exceedingly knowledgeable in this area, and truth be told, as much was said about you by someone I trust immensely, but the fact remains that the seller didn't have this luxury. While this may not totally excuse him from not looking further into it (if he, in fact, didn't and/or is not basing his belief on the advice of another) in less time than it took to start this thread you could've tried to educate and possibly independently prove to him why the medal is fake. After all, you said yourself that he "probably didn't know how to do the research", so wouldn't it have been better to help him truly understand why it's fake instead of just calling him "dishonest"? While certain it wasn't your intent, you're shaming someone who you've admitted to believing incapable of personally verifying information provided to him by a complete unknown. I'm sorry, but this approach simply doesn't make sense to me.

 

I told him that the weights do not match as per a reputable source, and I told him that I found a different metal under the bronze. How much more could have I said to tell him it is a copy. Also he did not ask any questions that indicated to me that he questioned my analysis.

 

In other words - your saying it is okay for people "who don't know coins or tokens" to sell fakes on ebay. It is okay for seller to ignore what they are told and just automatically repost the returned item for sale again. And to keep doing this until they find someone who won't question the coin. I am sorry but an honest seller would do some research on their own and not just put it backup for sale. Better yet - they could get an expert opinion on their own.

And people on here are "amazed" at ebays protection for the buyer. And I watch people abuse that feature on this forum also...

PS - there are sellers who do this with cracked harshly cleaned coins. They just keep selling until they find the right sucker. To me that is just as dishonest.

 

I wouldn't expect this seller, who doesn't know me from Adam, to simply take my word for it, nor would I expect him to mention "facts" in his relisting I couldn't be bothered to verify. To use your Peace dollar story as an example, without knowing the person, how is one to separate this fellow's brand of "expertise" from someone like Lea's, especially if, as she suggested, one unable to research on their own? Wouldnt the obvious answer be to simply provide independent proof?

Then you shouldn't have any trouble seeing that this isn't about expertise or knowledge, but only expectations and approach.

And there is the difference, Jim... you KNOW her; the seller doesn't.

Truth be told, I too am a little surprised by some of the posts in this thread as well. I do not believe anyone has really questioned her knowledge in this arena, yet most of the comebacks to any posts questioning her approach are worded as if they have. She is the friend of many here, and there's clearly a lot of respect for her, but this shouldn't deflect away from what's really being said. Again, no one is (or at least I'm not) questioning her motives, but am only saying that instead of expecting some unknown to take her word for it, perhaps it would be more constructive to simply provide them with independent proof, and doing so certainly would bolster any accusations of "dishonesty" if not taken to heart.

 

How would have you provided the proof beyond the differences in the weight and seeing the different metal?

 

So BB, if you sold a coin to somebody.. Joe Smith. He sent the coin back to you and said, the coin is fake because...... (Whatever) would you not take a second look at it regardless? You might look at it and disagree but you would look at it I am sure. If you had any doubts would you not then seek somebody who would know for sure? Would you simply just take the item, relist it and blow off "an opinion?" even if you have professed that you know nothing about the item.. I'm curious

 

I say because this dealer chose not to check the medal out he is more interested in making a buck than anything else . Therefore not the type of dealer I'd do business with .

 

You damn well know that's not what I'm saying, and I would very much appreciate you not putting words into my mouth. Perhaps I've come to expect too much from you.

Is it REALLY that hard to understand that the common sense course of action would be to at least try to provide INDEPENDENT PROOF when the issue at hand is between two parties that DO NOT KNOW EACHOTHER? Would you, Mark, if selling an item not familiar to you, simply take the word of someone completely unknown to you, or would you take their claim more seriously if they bothered to provide you with proof to back it up? Remember, Lea said that she doesn't believe the seller able to research for himself, so let's assume, for whatever reason, you were in the same boat here too. We are on a forum where proof is often provided to back up claims made and/or to educate others, so if good enough here, why not when it could benefit your fellow collector and possibly prevent a bad buy? Also, earlier in this thread submission was agreed as an option, but perhaps you just missed that part.

And as for your PS; I couldn't agree more, yet our resident problem dreck crackout, ahem, "artist" is still here, even after being busted what, 3-4 times on this very board, all buddy-buddy with the membership. I'm certainly not the only one who remembers this, so where are all the noble collectors looking out for their own? Does no one think that this guy uses his participation here, even if only in a roundabout way, to sell coins? Do they not think newbies who recognize him from the forum will think "hey, I can trust this guy"? Of course, yet it slides, as do those who, as you mentioned, abuse ebay's protection policies, but it's all part of the CT hypocrisy; it's always the other guy who is the problem. With that said, and if I may be so bold as to ask, what exactly are you trying to say by injecting this into the conversation?

 

I will ask again what method would have you used to verify to the seller that the medal was a copy? I have asked this before but have gotten no direct answer. Personally, I can think of no other way beyond giving him the weight difference and that the medal is plated maybe even painted. The only independent expert opinion available quickly would have been Joe Levine. I suspect most people here do not know who he is, and certainly the seller would not. This would not of made any difference to the seller either. I did not request to get back the shipping cost or open a return because it is a copy to preserve his reputation on EBay. So I have gone well beyond what is required, and the people here have raked me over the coals for not being fair to the seller. I have frequently read where a seller has warned other sellers about a buyer. This is the reverse, and done to protect other buyers.

 

First, the only reason I hadn't yet responded was time, and for this you have my apologies.

Now, where did you get your information from? Perhaps this, as it would offer him the opportunity to independently verify, would've been a fine start. Simply tell him where he could, if able, find the information on his own, or perhaps, as you've now done here, recommended an independent expert.

As for your "raking you over the coals" comment, Lea; I've done no such thing. This is ONLY about what could have been a better and more productive approach; nothing less and nothing more.

 

If he had questioned me about the information, I would have given it to him. He did not ask. Without those questions, how was I to know that he did not trust my opinion. Maybe I should have up front. I was thinking more about trying to save him, because I thought he had made an honest mistake in buying the medal. BTW this is where I got the information http://numismatics.org/collection/1979.38.887 .

 

Thanks for posting the info, Lea

 

Lots of assumptions made in posts about the seller. I went back to the listing. The seller included the following in the listing.

"I am a trusted seller with thousands of feedbacks that deals regularly with precious metals and coins, so you can be confident in what your getting. "

The seller says he is a coin and bullion dealer. So, I'm going to assume he knows something about coins, medals, bullion.

 

Caution in making accusations is always best. I recently sold a three coin set of uncirculated commemorative coins on eBay and the buyer claimed they had been cleaned because he could see what he thought were scratches on one or more of the coins. I refunded his purchase and re-listed them with better photos showing that the "scratches" were in fact die file marks that were convex lines only in the fields of two of the coins.

I've also sold commemorative medals that were of different metal composition than ones listed in reference catalogs. Upon researching them I've found that many medals were created in multiple metals. There is no substitute for knowledge. That is why I read forums and invest in lots of books. EBay sellers need positive reviews and debating with a disgruntled buyer is not the way to obtain them. So, if I know I'm right and the buyer is wrong, I just let it go. Unfortunately, the buyer of the three coin set that I refunded left no feedback at all. Apparently his pride was bruised when I reposted them proving he was wrong.

 

There really is not much information about this particular medal. All that I have found is that it is a cast medal made in bronze. The weight was given in the ANS database. The database shows two medals with the same composition and approximate weight. This particular medal actually looks like a bronzed white medal not even plated. The clear glaze was probably placed on to help hold the bronze onto the medal. The fact that this medal is not even shown in most online collections of Goetz medals probably means this medal is extremely rare.

 

This shows my correspondence with the seller

Dear flintlock_coin_bullion,

After receiving this medal. I found that the medal is not a real but a copy of the real medal. First after trying to remove the verdis gris, I found that this is composed of white metal that has been painted bronze. Also after looking up the weight, I found that it weighed much more than the correct weight. This left me with the conclusion that this medal is a copy.

- leaconcen

Dear leaconcen,

I purchased this medal with a collection of other zeppelin and hot air balloon medals/memerobilia, and have had no trouble with pieces being genuine. I will admit I am not a collector myself and just did my best to describe this item for what it was.

- flintlock_coin_bullion

Dear flintlock_coin_bullion,

Suspected that you may not of known that it was a copy. During my research, I found other copies of this medal with the exact spots of green corrosion. That would not be possible with natural corrosion. Rather someone somewhere made copies of the medal and sold them as genuine. It is a common pitfall of collecting medals and coins. I will need to return this to you for a refund. Because I tried to remove the corrosion, you will not see the medal as the same. It was because I tried to remove it that I found that it was a copy. Under the bronze exterior was a different metal. Real ones exist but weigh much less.

- leaconcen

Dear leaconcen,

Yes, feel free to return it. My address is:


Dear flintlock_coin_bullion,
I did not mark the reason for return as the medal being a copy. I did not want to ding you for that because it could have restricted your selling. It was an honest mistake on your part. You really should place a disclaimer onto your medal sales that you are not sure about authenticity. I am 100% sure this is a copy due to its weight so please do not sell it as genuine. Suspect you can sell it as a copy for about $100 perhaps more. Hope it will cover the cost of what you bought it for.