Dad's 1909 VDB Lincoln - Sharp Rims, Grainy - Matte Proof?

Hello,

This 1909 VDB Lincoln penny is part of a coin collection of my dad's from his childhood, that I'm slowly going through and getting acquainted with as I research and learn about each denomination, errors, etc. I did a lot of research trying to determine if this could possibly be a matte proof Lincoln since the first thing I noticed was a grainy-type appearance and the edges seem squared off too, but not completely sure? Even if it's not a MPL, I'm hoping the estimated grade is nice enough to have it certified? Your knowledge and opinions are appreciated

 

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It doesn't look sharp enough to me, but the edges are unusually squared off. There are a few diagnostics that you can look for that I'm not making out in your images. The most noticeable diagnostic is on the reverse. Look for a small crescent shaped die chip right next to the M in unum.

 

Thank you for your input! I'm able to see the line on the obverse from Lincoln's jacket up to the RT in Liberty & the scratch lines in front of the nose (but I think I read that those can show up sometimes on non proofs as well?). I've located a tiny cluster of sorts of a darker shade in the area between the M in unum and the top of the wheat stalk, but it's hard to see and to be able to confirm if it's crecsent shape? I've gone through 4 loupes trying to find a higher magnifying one that doesn't warp my view

I'm uploading a couple enlarged pics . You may be able to see the small darker area I'm referring to? Just curious what you think about the potential grade? When looking through my loup it has a bright gold appearance.

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You coin looks to be something between 63 and 65, but that is as close as I can get with those pictures.

As for the proof, the first check would be the VDB. All proof coins look like V. D . B. i.e the second dot is centered between the D and B. If it looks like V. D. B., it is not proof. If centered, it MAY be proof. As for the rest of the dioagnosis, see http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=608346

 

The rim should be sharp and straight on the inside edge and outside edge.




There should also be die scratches in front of Abe's nose and between the B and E in LIBERTY.


As mentioned earlier there should also be a small crescent shaped die chip right next to the M in unum.

 

Edge is not sharp and square with the rim. Yes it is well struck with a broad flat edge but that is not unusual for the 09 VDB. But the edge still rounds over to meet the rims.

 

I really appreciate all the information and direction received here. I will look into some of the suggestions further, but it's sounds like the rims may not qualify..

 

If the other diagnostics aren't there it won't matter how square the rim is.

 

There has been a lot of good input on the diags, so I will not re-hash, but bottom line.... No chance at all, it is a very nice coin though

Mike

 

(Thank you) it appears that the second dot is evenly spaced between the D and B. I took the closest pic I could and turned it black and white so the dots would stand out.


Also, as mentioned before, this coin does have some of the other diagnostics off the MPL (line from coat to R in liberty/cluster of nose scratches) and there is a dark cluster area to the right of the M of Unum but I can't confirm the shape as it's so tiny and my loupe cannot make it out.

 

Hi, I would great to hear how you came to your determination (rims?) of "no chance at all"? Knowing the whys is constructive to learning if you're willing to share.

I know many of you have lots of experience and I'm not looking past your comments, but I also know I have a hard time with the rims in person even with a loupe and comparison picture.

If this were your exact coin and you had even one or two small possibilities outstanding that could prove it's a 1909 VDB Matte Proof, would you give up or follow it through and have the coin graded? I'm thinking this is the only way to know for sure? Also, if it ends up being graded high enough to auction as a non-MPL, that would be a bonus

 

We are not trying to discourage you from further investigation, simply stating opinions that could help you down the correct path. I would suggest visiting your local coin shop and get the dealers opinion before spending the money to have it graded. It would be much easier for the dealer to determine how the coin was manufactured with the coin in hand than it is for us to see minute details that would need to be present. If it turn out that it is not a proof, I would suggest saving your money on the grading fees. VDBs are very common in high grades and you would need at least a 66 to make it worth the submission fees. I don't see it grading that high. Don't get me wrong, it's a very nice coin, but it may not be the home run that you are hoping for. Best of luck.

 

Re-read Bobs' (robec) answer.........if it don't have the 'diagnostics' it ain't one.

 

Hi, I definitely don't think anyone is discouraging and I appreciate the opinions, I was just trying to explain my thought process on moving forward or not.

 

If it were graded high enough to auction as a non-MPL, the surface condition would be more than good enough to see the diagnostics if this was an MPL.

 

Maybe not a matte proof, but it is a rather nice coin. It is well struck, would grade in mint state, and still has a lot of the original red luster! I don't think it's worth sending off for slabbing, though, unless you truly believe it is an MPL. Numismedia shows the 1909 VDB Red-Brown to be worth $20.40 in MS 60. This one might be a few points higher than that, but the value probably wouldn't be above the cost of slabbing.

It's still a very nice coin, and anyone who is trying to complete a set of Lincolns would enjoy it.

 

Nice coin but not a matte proof. The detail is just not there.

 

Not a proof IMO. If you do a forum search, this is been brought up many times. There are a lot of really nice 09 VDB's out there, it was the first run of the series on fresh hubs and dies.

 

It looks like a nice coin, but I agree with the consensus - not a MPL.