Just got the elusive 1916 Barber Half....

I find the pricing reasonable for what the coins are. 80 dollars for a Silver Barber fantasy coin, that will resell at over $200 if graded? Bargain for me, with my $2000 coins and more in my collection. Moreover, I have NO intention of selling them, as I like them. Is it better and more virtuous to collect Barber Halves that are so worn that they look like slugs, and sell for over $100 apiece?

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Put me down for 1 too

 

I will take a nice high grade pair, for slabbing.

 

Interesting. I have, of course, heard of and used the word 'loophole' in the past. I have always taken it to mean that it is a way that shady people get around a law by splitting hairs on what is or isn't quantified, or by (in some cases) using means that have not been quantified as illegal, such as if some law says you cannot transport something by rail or air, and you transport it by automobile..... you have circumvented a law by finding out what has not been specified and take your action in that manner.

But with the conversation here, where there are distinct stances being taken, and some who oppose are being quite strong in their feelings about it being a basically illegal action that is being done (circumventing laws that mean you have to label the coin as a copy), I decided to look up the meaning.

Here is one definition "A
loophole is an ambiguity or inadequacy in a system, such as a law or security, which can be used to circumvent or otherwise avoid the intent, implied or explicitly stated, of the system. Loopholes are searched for and used strategically in a variety of circumstances, including taxes, elections, politics, the criminal justice system, or in breaches of security, or a response to one's civil liberties.
Loopholes are distinct from lacunae, although the two terms are often used interchangeably. In a loophole, a law addressing a certain issue exists, but the law can be legally circumvented due to a technical defect in the said law. A lacuna, on the other hand, is a situation whereby no law exists in the first place to address that particular issue."

I think this may actually fall into the category of lacunae, in that there is no law that I know of to be able to take a minted coin and CHANGE that coin to a different item (being no longer the actual coin that was minted, but using the coin for it's metal content and size to create something from it). Sort of akin to the elongated pennies that people do to have a 'souvenir' from a place. In that case, no one goes and says that the elongated pennies have to have 'copy' stamped on them, because their shape has changed and it contains a recognizable different feature on it than the coin it was made from.

Although I am not a particular fan of D Carr's work as 'art' or as something I would invest in, because I see it as more a technical change than artistic, I also don't think, after consideration, that it is a 'copy', either that should fall into the counterfeiting arena. His work, as doing overstrikes (which are not illegal) is creating a coin that looks a lot like the original but has details that keep it from being mistaken by someone as an original. As a fantasy piece, no reputable coin dealer should ever mistake it (his altered/overstruck coin) for being a real mint product.

I can only think that these possibly appeal to those who like the design so much and can't afford a high-quality piece of the real McCoy, yet don't want to have a reproduction piece that is not the right content or weight.

 

Oh, I can more than afford the originals of those series, as most of the collectors here know. I happen to like the fantasy issues as well. It will sit next to some of my AU and MS halves, ranging from Bust to JFK.

 

Not little ol me, I can't afford a thing, I am such a wellfare case....

 

Well, I didn't say my supposition as to why they appeal to others is correct......

 

Here is a definition you can think of:
Over-striking on an existing coin compared to striking on a new blank. One was legal tender before the over-strike, the other was not.

During the over-striking, the original coin does not magically disappear and then reappear like a Star Trek replicator in action. There are new aspects to the over-struck coin, but all the original metal and some of the original design outlines are still there.

The way I do it, it certainly is a lot more work to over-strike on existing coins than it is to strike on new virgin blanks. When using old coins, they have to be cleaned and each one must be carefully aligned with the over-striking dies as close as possible.

The silver rounds are 999 fine. If melted US coins are used, the copper has to be removed to refine it from 90% to 99.9%. But the point is, I do NOT melt the host coins. That is a significant difference from your mass melting scenario.

Here is what I see wrong with this:
You are, in a sense, ridiculing some of your fellow collectors on this forum by claiming that they are paying "ridiculous" prices. What if someone came along and told you that you pay "ridiculous" prices for your coins because they don't like what you collect ?

Altering an existing government-issue coin is legally distinguishable from minting a whole new coin that looks like legal tender but isn't.

Your analysis overlooks this:
Just because those rounds have "COPY" on them doesn't necessarily mean it is required by law. There has not been any court ruling on the requirement of "COPY" on a silver round that has similarities and differences from a US coin.
In other words:
The threshold is not well defined for how close a silver round can be to an original numismatic item and still not need "COPY" on it.

And I repeat:
Altering an existing government-issue coin is legally distinguishable from minting a whole new coin that looks like legal tender but isn't.

There is no legal precedent for your claim that I am somehow getting away with something.

Which one of those was a genuine US Mint coin prior to being [over]struck ?

PS:
Personally, I think putting "COPY" on a silver round that obviously isn't a US Mint product is stupid. It is a silver round. But a "COPY" of a silver round ? Does that mean it is made out of COPY (imitation) silver ?

Hypothetical scenarios have been invented and presented many times in these arguments. Here is mine, in regards to these "COPY" silver rounds:

Grandpa buys a bunch of these "COPY" silver rounds because it is the cheapest was to acquire silver bullion. Years later his heirs are liquidating the estate. They come across these "COPY" rounds. But since they are marked "COPY", the heirs mistakenly think they are worthless and discard them. Or the heirs take them to a "we buy gold" shop and the ignorant/unscrupulous shop person tells them the rounds are imitation silver and only worth 50 cents each.

Somebody might get cheated because these rounds have "COPY" on them.

 

From a million pages ago... simple solution.

 

Mr. Carr , just a question , do you take graver in hand and engrave the design entirely by hand ? Or do you draw the design on say Adobe and use cnc engraving or lazer engraving ?

 

Not quite.
The HPA stipulates that replicas of "original numismatic items" must be marked "COPY". It does not say "US Coins". But the definition of the term "original numismatic item" in the HPA is open for interpretation and it does not necessarily include fantasy-date over-strikes.

And, as I said previously, there was no court ruling that the Westminster Mint must put "COPY" on their rounds. They decided to do that on their own after a small class-action lawsuit about them was "settled" out of court with no court ruling on the matter. And there was no court order instructing Westminster Mint to put "COPY" on their rounds.

 

It may be simple to put something like copy or his initials on the edge, but I do not think it would be a solution. Some may then say he is just hiding it on the edge. Also, IMO, if someone is going to be duped into believing these fantasy restrikes are real in the future, he would likely not be examining the 3rd side.

 

Then why did you have to include the "ridiculous" price adjective in your prior post ?

I'm the only one producing these by over-striking. And it is very possible that the silver rounds in question are different enough from any original numismatic item that they don't legally need a "COPY" stamp.

 

I use CNC.

 

It's a better solution than to do nothing.

 

What you said is an opinion based upon your interpretation of the law. It is only a fact as far as you are concerned.

As for the 1964-D Peace Dollar you've shown? They are no 1964 or 1964-D Peace Dollars. They do not exist and the government says they do not exist. There is not even a picture of a 1964-D Peace Dollar. There are no pictures of the making of said coins and for all practical purposes, the coins never did exist except in some reports. From a "HARD LINE" aspect, if people believe that they actually made the coin (because the government said so) then they must also believe that they were all destroyed (because the government said so). That's a pretty simple concept.

ALL of Daniel Carr's works in the over-strike arena are OBVIOUS over strikes and anybody with ANY type of numismatic ability can see this. He takes authentic US Coins and alters the dates.

If I were to take a 1944 Lincoln and scrape the extra bars off the 4's, would I have to label it COPY? Or alteration?

As for the Westminster Mint, they go taken to court under the HPA. Read about it here: http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=924970

You can also see coins which DID NOT have COPY on them prior to Westminster Mint reaching an "Out of Court Settlement". Evidently they decided to not waste their money on such a trivial suit.

Now, since YOU asked why they have COPY on them, tell me why this coin DOES NOT have the word COPY:

http://www.apmex.com/product/29007/1-oz-silver-round-incuse-indianOr this one: http://www.apmex.com/product/60934/1-4-oz-silver-round-apmex-standing-liberty-quarter
Or this one: http://www.apmex.com/product/60935/1-2-oz-silver-round-apmex-walking-liberty-half-dollar

Until you can provide that answer, your response appears to be "opinions".

 

Does anyone know of anyone who has the plates for old $100 notes? I'll sell him $1 notes if he'll wash them out for me and restrike them as old $100 notes. I'll pay $2 a note, he can make 100% on them.