READ THIS! The Next Generation Of Chinese Counterfeits Have Arrived

That why the OP need to tell us what make it fake

 

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Now it's a guessing game good

 

I do not disagree simply because the reality of the counterfeiting situation is that there are plenty of coins out there which can be examined at any time with the simple "click" of a mouse. Additionally, even PCGS published the "tells" of the 1934 Washington's found in 1985.

Question: If someone's grandmother just happened to stick several 1934 Late Die State Washington Quarters away for the future, would everybody automatically assume that they were counterfeit?

What if 250 1909SVDB Lincolns suddenly showed up in the population reports?

Given the "recent" discovery of some previously unknown die marriages and even pop 1 coins which had a population of 1 for years, is it so totally out of the realm of possibility that there are stash's of uncirculated coins still out there just waiting for the right moment in time to be uncovered?

Education is a "public" thing. Anybody can get it. For $149 folks can even learn from the best at the upcoming Long Beach Coin Show! Unless of course, Chinese Speaking folks are not allowed to attend? (sic humor)

The "SKY" isn't falling folks because it already fell.

 

Will they make them out of 90% silver ? and be right on the weight ?

 

Yes for about $5.00 more or less

 

If this were true, fine die scratches and the like would not show up on the struck coins. But they do.

The Ron Paul die shown is not necessarily a fitting example for this situation. That die may have been engraved directly, without any hubbing in the process.

"Lathe marks" sometimes occur on master hubs as a result of "slop" in the mechanical linkages of the Janvier lathe (which is the device which cuts a master hub from a large galvano). The master hub is a "positive" just like the finished coins, and so if the master hub is polished enough, the lathe marks will tend to remain in the protected areas and will tend to vanish on the raised devices. The lathe marks in the master hub WILL transfer all the way down the line to the master dies, to the working hubs, to the working dies, and to the coins.

 

This thread has been very enlightening. What have we learned here? Americans are stupid, to certain people, because some don't like reading. We have an education on engraving a die. We also learned that the Chinese are watching every move we make. Oh and best of all, there's a few that hate the moderator. But we have not learned anything of the fake coin that is supposed to doom our hobby. I found this to be one of the most useless threads I have ever seen.

 

Aren't die scratches the result of polishing the finished die . If so they would be on the coins as the dies were already hubbed . Also I was wondering , when you hub a die , isn't the die still relatively soft and the positive hub hardened . Being an retired tool and die maker . When you face a piece of metal , with high speed , ie rpms . And slow feed (travel) the lines are very negligible but if you're in a hurry to remove metal large grooves remain . Still I've seen someone take a ballpeen hammer to the face of a piece and all traces of the lathe lines are removed . Now you've probably forgotten more than I ever could know about the hubbing process and die preparing . My question is how often are the lathe lines seen on the devices and if they aren't removed in the hubbing process most of the times as Doug said ?

 

I wish you saw my post as more than "hating on a moderator". I am not a serial killer. I didn't just pick a random person to dislike. Initially I was blown away that a forum member wouldnt want the coin diagnosed on the grounds of informing the Chinese. THEN I saw it was a moderator. Comprehending the role a mod plays on this site, a forum that I think is one of the best out there for the hobby overall, and seeing their opinion of "DO NOT DIAGNOSE" and the reason why.....I just, I dont even understand how someone with that mindset was given the reigns. Plain and simple. And if someone says "you think they should be dismissed solely on one thing? Yes. In this case, Yes. Murderers go to jail, or the electric chair. Thats an extreme. We invade countries for a silly list of reasons. Thats an extreme. You axe a mod who is running an agenda contrary to the hobby and forums direction. I still want the purpose of this thread, to inform collectors of counterfeits, to develop into what it should have; if the initial mod who created it, and the secondary mod who supported that idea didn't express their wishes to not have it do that...it's purpose. This isn't Sparta, this is madness.

 

well said

 

I like you want the diagnostics of the fakes talked about , but I do understand the mods point of view also . They didn't shut the thread down or censor anything . The mods have a tough job here , give them a break as they're allowed to have their own opinions just as you are .

 

Oh please. The minute the original poster did not give the diagnostics that was when the mod was supposed to step in, get the diagnostics or shut the post down right then. Not let it go this far. Everyone now is in a guessing game for no reason.

 

Yes, die scratches are an artifact on the working die that struck the coin. The pattern of these die scratches will be unique to that die. The point that I was attempting to make is that it was stated that fine lines do not transfer due to metal flow. My example was that fine lines transfer from a die to coin even when there is a lot of metal flow. Fine lines will also transfer during the hubbing process because hubbing a die is not unlike striking a soft piece of unhardened steel with a hardened steel die.

Your ballpeen hammer example is an illustration of how a surface texture can be altered by impacting or abrading it.

Lathe lines were fairly common on master hubs prior to about 1950. If the lines were excessive, the hub may have been "worked" or just scrapped. Once in a while, lathe lines would make it all the way onto struck coinage.

Another (perhaps more likely) avenue that lathe marks can get onto a coin is when a working die blank has lathe marks on it PRIOR to hubbing. When hubbed, the working die can still show the lathe marks through the hubbing. Here is a good web page which illustrates it: http://errorvariety.com/Lathe-lines/index.html

Here is another example:
http://www.errorvariety.com/Lathe-lines/82D50cWashLL001.html

 

To me this looks like a die blank that had lathe marks on it PRIOR to engraving. Since this particular style of engraving only removes metal where the devices are, naturally there would be no lathe lines across the devices.

 

So it appears that the lathe lines are the supposed (undisclosed) "tell" that the coin is counterfeit ?

If this is the "tell" that is being kept confidential so as to not alert the supposed counterfeiter, it is sort of like keeping a secret that is already obvious to many including this supposed counterfeiter.

Lacking any other information, I'm going to call the original post coin genuine. Such lathe lines (and/or die scratches) have appeared on numerous genuine coins.

 

There are some arc lines on the OP coin that could be lathe lines. Or they could be die abrading scratches. The key identifier is whether or not the lines are concentric arcs with the arc centers aligned with the center of the coin.

Also note that a die that has been in use for some time (like the OP coin) has a higher likelihood of having been clashed at some point. The typical US Mint procedure for effacing such clash marks is to abrade the die while leaving a somewhat rough texture. The abrading often leaves behind significant die scratching. The scratching tends to keep the die from having a proof-like polish. A proof-like polish would be undesirable since it would accentuate remaining clash marks and not hide them as well as a rough surface texture would.

 

Yes, oh please... you honestly think the thread should have been closed because the OP, who is also a mod as well, didn't disclose the supposed diagnostics? That sort of thinking is just as questionable as the Chinese nonsense. This is a discussion forum and each member, including mods, have a right to their own opinions even if I do firmly agree that the greater good outweighs the paranoia. Unless one of the mods edited or deleted a post based upon their personal opinion on the matter, continually pressing the issue is counterproductive.

As for the "guessing game", please go back one page and read the second paragraph in post #279. If what @19Lyds said is true, the cat is and has been let out of the bag. Perhaps now, instead of worrying and arguing about differing opinions, we can focus on and debate the initial claim based only upon the evidence provided.

 

No evidence provided by the OP all is just guessing games and yes pressing the issue is productive as for the cat out please I see no cat or bag from the OP
Yes it should have been shut down when the OP showed no evidence or diagnostics
to tell what makes it fake

 

If you think this thread is lacking in informative advice, well, I think I can help. But I'm not sure whether the most helpful advice is "You can lead a horse to water", or "Don't let the door hit you..."